Thanks for the post, it is indeed an imporntant issue
This is a discussion on A deadly encounter... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Scenerio: one of us detains a bad guy at the scene of a crime, within minutes LEOs are swarming around us and we are standing ...
Scenerio: one of us detains a bad guy at the scene of a crime, within minutes LEOs are swarming around us and we are standing there in plain clothes, without a badge, and with a firearm in our hand aimed at another person.
This is a potentially fatal situation for lawful citizens such as us. I would like to discuss what to do and why to do it backed up with some professional advice.
Recently in Norfolk, VA, a plain clothes officer was shot and killed by a uniformed officer as both responded to an in-progress call: Norfolk Police Officer Shot And Killed
Here are some tips I pulled from a Street Survival Reminder article.
- Cops LOVE in-progress calls, and it's our nature to rush in, ready to fight crime and save the day. This could mean one of us taking a dirt nap if we are not prepared to communicate exactly who we are and what we are doing.
- Communicate with dispatch...snip...for example: "I'm wearing a navy blue suit with a shoulder holster." Whoever has a cellular phone available MUST communicate via 911 who we are, what we are wearing, and what we are doing, etc.
- UNIFORM ALWAYS TRUMPS PLAINCLOTHES! Follow any order given to you by any uniformed officer on the scene until ALL ARMED PERSONNEL have been advised that you are a law enforcement officer/lawfull citizen. Never assume that anyone knows you are a police officer/lawfull citizen until you receive verbal confirmation.
Article: Street Survival Reminder: Officer's death yields tactical tips for plainclothes officers
In simple terms: let EVERYONE know who you are and be prepared to lay down your firearm when a LEO arrives on scene.
Any additional information/comments are appreciated. I feel this is an important issue to all of us.
Thanks for the post, it is indeed an imporntant issue
Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .
Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.
A good reminder all around. Not that anyone wants to get tied up in a situation such as this...but good to have in the back of the mind. The more you "train your brain" to consider different scenerios, the more automatic you will act---or react--- when actually in them.
"Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."
Good reminder - and the communication via cell phone could be a life-saver.
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"A man without ethics is a wild beast loosed upon the world" Albert Camus
It is most certainly one of those things very much uppermost in mind - and essential to be aware of.
LE, no one in fact in many situations, can possibly know thru guesswork just who the good guy is.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
Another reason we all should have our "concealed weapons liscence holder badge" on us and ready to whip out in a moments notice.
naah just kidding!
but definitely something to think about because i would expect if LE rolled up on us in that situation we should expect him to exit his vehicle, draw his glock, drop behind the cover of his open door, and draw down on us. no words we say will matter for a few seconds. ya simply lay or drop yer gun REAL FAST.
and god i'd hate to drop my 1911 on the sidewalk but...
This is mine. That is yours.
Lets keep it that way.
Cant expect LE to know who is who upon arrival...
"Ray Nagin is a colossal disappointment" - NRA/ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox.
"...be water, my friend."
This is why I carry a gun I don't mind tossing on the ground and kicking across a parking lot or whatever. When the uniforms arrive the gun will be hitting the ground, or they will likely shoot you. Movements not consistant with dropping your gun will also likely get you shot.
Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.
My instructor told me when asked about this scenario… "When the police arrive, show them empty hands high and do exactly as you are told. Lose the gun as they are coming in, either back in the holster / pocket, or somewhere where the BG can't get a hold of it".
I think this is sound wisdom coming from a veteran officer!
Clear communication and slow movements are all very important, I imagine. Common sense dictates that you simply do what the officer says and then when the situation is under control, explain yourself.
I have never been in a situation involving firearms, but between stories from family members who are LEO's, and then first hand experience witnessing shtf situations, people become stupid and pumped up. It's as simple as "listen to what the man in the uniform and has the gun says."
Try holding gun with one hand and holding your wallet/ i.d. in the other and hold over your head, this will make them hesitate enough where they won't burn a hole in you , hold your i.d. over your head and state loudly " i'M A PISTOL LICESNEE, DON'T SHOOT!!! and comply with their commands.
My general rule of thumb (exceptions will always be out there) is that I don't plan on holding a guy at gun point.
If my life won't be in danger by telling him to take a hike, that's my response. Hopefully, the quick cell phone call will put the cops on him quickly. Since I'm not in the business of catching bad guys, only protecting my life and those close to me, I can't see that I have much to lose by getting him to leave and I'm avoiding the potential issue created when the police show up and I'm holding a gun on someone.
If there is a dispute about how the scene went down, I've also caused the bad guy to leave the scene (dosn't look good for him).
Also, consider the affects of BAR (Body Alarm Responce) that you'll likely be suffering from. Will you hear the cops show up, will your tunnel vision allow you to see them show up, etc., etc. ?
Again, what do I lose by telling him to leave?
Last edited by Kat; June 26th, 2006 at 06:19 PM.
Luke 22:36 And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one."
Kat, you may not lose anything (I don't know if you can be held criminally liable for letting a BG go that you've just drawn on, most likely because he was a threat to you, yours, or another).
But, how many others will "lose" something because you felt it was better to just "let him go"?
As for me, I would just do that special twirl thing with my finger in the trigger guard. Most likely with a Glock with a cartriage in the chamber...... j/k
No, I would just comply with the LEO's demands. Most likely I would have already put the gun up (into it's holster) as soon as they came up and have my hands WAY UP into the air.
There is no way I'm kicking my XD across the parking lot! I can see it now,Originally Posted by Scott
"Put the gun down on the ground!"
"Kick the gun toward me!"
'WHAT?!?, this thing cost me a weeks pay!'
+1 on that! Although it would be a good excuse to send it to Canyon Creek for a new finish job!Originally Posted by PackerfanXD