Does an officer have the right to?

This is a discussion on Does an officer have the right to? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hypothetically speaking you are taking a vacation trip to see your relatives in lets say Illinois or another communistic state like it. You know there ...

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 67

Thread: Does an officer have the right to?

  1. #1
    Member Array mrm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    295

    Does an officer have the right to?

    Hypothetically speaking you are taking a vacation trip to see your relatives in lets say Illinois or another communistic state like it. You know there is no carry in those states no matter if you have a cwp. My question is you get pulled over for a not using your blinker or 5 miles over speed limit (routine traffic stop) the officer comes up to the window you hand him license and insurance, he goes back to his car and runs your license and it tells him you have a cwp. Can he ask you to step out of the car and frisk you to see if you are lying to him about having a weapon on you.
    This is going on the notion that you have not given him any reason to or acted in any way suspicious.
    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
    - Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    454
    No.
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    You are not paranoid if They are actually out to get you, however, They probably are not and you probably are.

  4. #3
    Senior Member Array DoctorBob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    575
    Not only that, but you do have a right to carry a weapon "through" the state if it is disassembled and packed in a locked box in the trunk with no ammunition within arms reach. It's a federal reg that has to do with interstate commerce. However if you make anything more than the most brief stops for food or gas you may be in trouble.

  5. #4
    VIP Member
    Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    S. Florida, north of the Miami mess, south of the Mouse trap
    Posts
    14,576
    Stand your ground, tell him no way. Let me know how that works out for you.
    Retired USAF E-8. Avatar is OldVet from days long gone. Oh, to be young again.
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  6. #5
    Member Array mrm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    295
    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Stand your ground, tell him no way. Let me know how that works out for you.
    I'm mostly just wondering if he would want to or if he even had the legal right to, I'm not in any way suggesting not being fully compliant with the officer.
    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
    - Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

  7. #6
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,377
    Prima facie; No. A CCW permit is not reasonable suspicion of illegal activity. If you are not carrying, and not in your home state, why even show your permit? I highly doubt an out of state officer is going to be able to pull your home states permit records from the car, unless he does a whole new query, provided your home states publishes such information.

    However, like I've said many times before, there is more than one way to skin a cat. He does have the legal authority to get you out of the car for whatever reason. At that point, he does have the authority to conduct a "Terry pat down". When he finds your gun, you will be arrested and thrown in the commie state lockup, and your CCW is gone in your home state.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  8. #7
    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    454
    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Prima facie; No. A CCW permit is not reasonable suspicion of illegal activity. If you are not carrying, and not in your home state, why even show your permit?
    However, like I've said many times before, there is more than one way to skin a cat. He does have the legal authority to get you out of the car for whatever reason. At that point, he does have the authority to conduct a "Terry pat down". When he finds your gun, you will be arrested and thrown in the commie state lockup, and your CCW is gone in your home state.
    Yep. So... don't carry where it is not legal to do so.
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    You are not paranoid if They are actually out to get you, however, They probably are not and you probably are.

  9. #8
    Member Array mrm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    295
    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Prima facie; No. A CCW permit is not reasonable suspicion of illegal activity. If you are not carrying, and not in your home state, why even show your permit? I highly doubt an out of state officer is going to be able to pull your home states permit records from the car, unless he does a whole new query, provided your home states publishes such information.

    However, like I've said many times before, there is more than one way to skin a cat. He does have the legal authority to get you out of the car for whatever reason. At that point, he does have the authority to conduct a "Terry pat down". When he finds your gun, you will be arrested and thrown in the commie state lockup, and your CCW is gone in your home state.
    Actually I never said you show him your permit this is assuming what I have heard is true regarding the fact that when he runs your license he can see you have one. And in no way am I advocating carrying where it is illegal to do so, I am merely wondering if this falls into the catagory of illegal search?
    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
    - Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    4,713
    If you are going through states like IL or WI that have no provision for CHL, then you simply put the gun in a case with the magazine separate from the gun.

    I choose to use a zippered case that isn't too far from me, and leave the magazine right next to the zippered case. There are no restrictions for handguns or longguns other than they must be unloaded in a case in those two states.

    If the officer runs your DL, more than likely it isn't going to give him the CHL status in one of those states. But if he does ask me to exit the vehicle I will gladly do so and if he chooses to pat me down, well he will find no gun on my person and no holster in which to place a gun on my person.

    There is no reason not to abide by the law when in a state that is either unfriendly to gun owners or a state that doesn't reciprocate with a state from which you have a permit. In states that don't allow or don't reciprocate, I will not be handing over my CHL with my DL if I am ever stopped.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
    www.ddchl.com
    Texas CHL Instructor
    Texas Hunter Education Instructor
    NRA Instructor

  11. #10
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,377
    Quote Originally Posted by mrm View Post
    Actually I never said you show him your permit this is assuming what I have heard is true regarding the fact that when he runs your license he can see you have one. And in no way am I advocating carrying where it is illegal to do so, I am merely wondering if this falls into the catagory of illegal search?
    I know, I misread your post at first, I re read it, and edited mine. Anyway, its how the search is articulated. If the search was done mearly on the fact you have a permit, then yes, it is illegal. BUT, it is very easy, legal and common way to conduct business in regards to the Terry Pat. You would be rolling the dice big time.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  12. #11
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    1,786
    Um, first point, the computers in the squad cars are not linked to any national systems except for some warrants. they are only linked to state databases and some are linked to a limited warrant based system that can tell if you have a warrant in say california if a officer in illinois runs you. Something like a CHP, would not show up on an out of state computer, they actually have to put a call into dispatch for dispatch to contact your states law enforcement to verify your permit if you show it to them
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  13. #12
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,377
    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    Um, first point, the computers in the squad cars are not linked to any national systems except for some warrants. they are only linked to state databases and some are linked to a limited warrant based system that can tell if you have a warrant in say california if a officer in illinois runs you. Something like a CHP, would not show up on an out of state computer, they actually have to put a call into dispatch for dispatch to contact your states law enforcement to verify your permit if you show it to them
    Depends on the department, but this entire post is largely not true anymore. A permit will most likely not show up in a normal D/L or registration query, but most of the modern systems do have the capabilty of searching nationwide, and even the internet.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    4,745
    Well let's see here.....
    The fact that you failed to properly signal a lane change or turn,(if that is the local traffic law) or were exceding the posted the speed limit gives the officer all the legal justification he needs to stop you. There is no question about that.
    Can you think of any court rulings which would prohibit the officer from ordering you out of your vehicle? I am not aware of any.
    Now the question is does the officer have a "reasonable suspicion" that you are armed? Would the average person/officer find it reasonable to believe that a person that their computer system has identified as having a cwp may in fact have a concealed weapon on them? If yes, they have met the legal requirement for a pat down search for weapons for officer safety.

    ETA: Sixto is probably much better informed on this than I am. But as I understand it the frisk part of Terry only required that an officer reasonably suspected the person to be armed, not that they had to suspect criminal activity. The suspicion of criminal activity was only required for the stop part. The stop in the OP was justified by the traffic offense. As far as traffic stops go the courts have seemed to be more inclined to err, as it were, toward the side of officer safety.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    6,524
    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    If you are going through states like IL or WI that have no provision for CHL, then you simply put the gun in a case with the magazine separate from the gun.

    I choose to use a zippered case that isn't too far from me, and leave the magazine right next to the zippered case. There are no restrictions for handguns or longguns other than they must be unloaded in a case in those two states.

    If the officer runs your DL, more than likely it isn't going to give him the CHL status in one of those states. But if he does ask me to exit the vehicle I will gladly do so and if he chooses to pat me down, well he will find no gun on my person and no holster in which to place a gun on my person.

    There is no reason not to abide by the law when in a state that is either unfriendly to gun owners or a state that doesn't reciprocate with a state from which you have a permit. In states that don't allow or don't reciprocate, I will not be handing over my CHL with my DL if I am ever stopped.
    Be VERRRY careful in Illinois... "isn't too far from me" to you might be "immediately accessible" To IL LEO ...
    and, while I apprecite convenient sources like Handgunlaw.US... If there's any doubt or ambiguity, I prefer to go to the "horse's mouth" (publications regarding guns from official state sources) like: http://www.isp.state.il.us/docs/ptfire.pdf

    EDIT to add... You'd probably be legal unloaded in a case, even if it were not too far from you, but the state even talks about having the case fully zipped... IMO, it'd be safer in the trunk, in a case, unloaded. And along the Shortest possible route thru that state... (my birth state, but I hate their gun laws, and avoid travel thru it if possible)
    Politicians, take note of Colorado 9/10/2013.
    "You are elected to service, not power.
    Your job is to "serve us" not to lord power over us."
    Me, 9/11/13

  16. #15
    VIP Member
    Array DaveH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    SW Virginia
    Posts
    5,036
    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    However, like I've said many times before, there is more than one way to skin a cat. He does have the legal authority to get you out of the car for whatever reason. At that point, he does have the authority to conduct a "Terry pat down". When he finds your gun, you will be arrested and thrown in the commie state lockup, and your CCW is gone in your home state.
    Absolutely! In Virginia, a "routine traffic stop" is considered a "Terry Stop." No pretense needed to have you exit the car and do a "Terry pat down" -- with or without knowledge of a CHP.

    In Virginia, if it is a legitimate traffic stop (see discussion at: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/va-suprem...t/1339433.html) you can be patted down, for the LEO's safety. I suspect other States have similar case law.

    OTOH, carrying a gun, by itself, is not cause for a "Terry Stop" absent other factors. See: GOODMAN v. COMMONWEALTH http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/1971061.pdf

    “Absent some disqualifying status (being a felon, juvenile, or drug possessor) or situs (being in a place where weapons are forbidden), it is not a crime to possess a weapon.”
    Last edited by DaveH; September 10th, 2010 at 02:56 PM. Reason: emphasis added
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Does an officer have the right to?
    By mrm in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: September 10th, 2010, 11:44 AM
  2. Ottawa Police Officer Murdered By Former RCMP Officer.
    By GunnyBunny in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: December 29th, 2009, 08:14 PM
  3. [Updated] LAPD Officer shot by Long Beach PD Officer (Merged)
    By matiki in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: July 31st, 2008, 10:59 PM
  4. NH police officer's gun discharges, bullet hits 2nd officer
    By paramedic70002 in forum Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: May 4th, 2008, 06:03 PM
  5. But Officer
    By FortyFive in forum Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: June 14th, 2005, 11:09 AM

Search tags for this page

can a officer ask to see your tennessee gun permit with no probable cause?
,

can an officer ask everyone in the car for id in texas

,
ccw permit texas does it give right for vehicle search
,
comments az versus gant
,
does a police officer have the right to check a weapon to see if it is stolen?
,
does a police officer have the right to know where your going
,
does an officer have the right to search your vehicle in louisiana
,

does concealed permit give reasonable suspicion

,
if an officer asks you to step out of your home can you say no?
,

in arkansas can police officer ask for your pistol if you have a concede handgun license on a routine traffic stop

,
in mississippi does a person have to exit the car for a traffic stop by a cop?
,
louisiana does an officer have the right to talk to me for open carry
Click on a term to search for related topics.