compliant victims

This is a discussion on compliant victims within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hope this is in an acceptable post; sorry if it's not. Are there any statistics that back up the thought that complying with a bg ...

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Thread: compliant victims

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    Member Array revdej's Avatar
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    compliant victims

    Hope this is in an acceptable post; sorry if it's not.
    Are there any statistics that back up the thought that complying with a bg does not necessarily mean you will not be harmed? Well meaning sheep will often say, "Well, if you just give them the car/money/jewlery/etc, they'll just go away and nobody will be harmed. Things can be replaced." We all know that's not always the case, but any studies done in the past to prove it?

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I believe that there are some floating around, generally favoring compliance, from various sources. There are also some floating around about the odds of not being a victim of a robbery or assault, suggesting personal weapons are unnecessary. One sided statistics, odds, etc are only valuable if you don't happen to be one of the exceptions.

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    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    Things can be replaced, but the BG isn't just politely asking for my things. He's using the immediate threat of deadly force against me. My wallet is replaceable; my life is not.

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    Some only want your valuables; some don't want witnesses. It's difficult to tell the difference.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
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    VIP Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    I'd be curious if the statistics showed if the BG was masked/inidentifiable or not. Common sense is telling me he would be more apt to flee without doing you harm if he couldn't be indentified.
    If someone jumped out in front of me with a mask I think I would be more likely to hand over my wallet. I can't say the same would be true if they didn't care if I saw their face.

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    VIP Member Array automatic slim's Avatar
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    I'd rather put my trust in my gun than in a BG.
    "First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand."
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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    There are risks either way, the question is, do you put more faith in your abilities or the benevolence of an armed criminal. Experience has answered the question for me.

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    VIP Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    Well put Guantes.

  10. #9
    New Member Array Moriah's Avatar
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    Well meaning sheep will often say, "Well, if you just give them the car/money/jewlery/etc, they'll just go away and nobody will be harmed. Things can be replaced."
    Since purchasing a firearm I've thought about this in a slightly different light, of course, than I did without one.

    Before, I've been told that there were limitation to intelligent compliance. "Give him the car" might be intelligent in the right circumstances -- but not remaining in the car (aka true carjacking). Just as even if a knife is at your throat or a gun is at your head, better to fight than to ever get in a vehicle with a BG -- no matter the odds at the time, they are better then than they will ever be if you do comply. They only want you to go with them to do something they can't do to you there. Better to die then than to die after being raped or tortured.

    To me a similar amount of intelligence is required when dealing with someone who appears to only be wanting your property. I would not just hand my purse over and stand there -- I would throw it in one direction and run in the other.

    Now that I've purchased a firearm.... there have been breakins in my neighborhood, and that's why I purchased one. This is more defensive home use than defensive carry, but if I heard noises in the front of my apartment, as a single female I think the most intelligent thing I could do in that case would be to stay in my bedroom, call 911 as quietly as I can, and aim my gun at my bedroom door until police showed up. That's leaving my TV and electronics vulnerable, but being in the best position to preserve my life -- rather than risk going out there and trying to chase them out even with a firearm, since they might be armed too.

    Now, with a firearm and looking to get a concealed carry license, the armed purse-snatcher scenario changes. I would probably still throw my purse or ring or wallet in one direction and run another -- either to immediate safety, or to at least create some distance between me and the attacker.

    But the image of a sheep calmly handing over their purse or wallet or rings and saying "Don't hurt me!" is not one I had in my head when I was told that it was better to give them what they wanted. "Here, you can have it!" while you're throwing whatever they want away from you and using the distraction to try to get away is the only way I can see complying in those situations.

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    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    While it would be an interesting study if done fairly and with total overall results, I have seen a LOT of proof that complying doesn't always work. I have also seen examples of carrying a defensive firearm not working out well for the GG. I would compare it to a life jacket as you may get lost at sea and die anyways, but at least you had it to get you through what it was designed for, giving you at the least, a better chance. Of course, the lifejacket being the "fighting back" part and not necessarily a firearm. If you want it, it's there. If you can swim to shore or there are other options, you don't have to use it. It all depends on the situation so I tend to take these studies with a grain of salt. There are too many variables here after you blend human personalities with the number of possible scenarios to try and guess what your chances are going to be if that day presents itself. So I'm thining that no matter what the study says about complying, the odds will be better if one is given the ability to fight fire with fire, rather than fighting fire with nothing if they are the type to fight an attack instead of give in to whatever they want. This depends heavily on the intent and ability of the attacker mixed with intent and ability of the victim and to me there is no way for a study to predict my particular outcome accurately enough to discipline myself to live by it. And while there is that chance that the BG has the drop on me from the start, I would still like to have the ability to fight back if the tables are turned, or better yet, the ability to turn the tables.
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  12. #11
    Distinguished Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    The important point here is to understand that "compliance" does not mean that you are not defending.

    You are always defending. The issue is at what point you elect to engage in combatives.

    The recommended course of action is scenario specific. You have to look at what the threat is and what the risks facing you are. If you are a woman and the BG is trying to get you into a vehicle, the statistics indicate that your odds of surviving improve if you don't get in the car. You may have to take a bullet, but your chances of surviving that are much better than whatever happens if you get in the vehicle.

    If you are a male or female and are being physically attacked, statistics show that forceful resistance substantially improves odds of survival.

    Now, if you are being mugged by a single attacker, a person with a lead pipe, a knife or gun, and they have the drop on you, or if you are being braced by a gang of 2 to 5 attackers, and they are asking for your wallet or purse, the usual advice is to hand it over. That doesn't mean you have stopped defending. Rather, the odds are steep against you and if handing over the cash ends the encounter non-violently, it's a best outcome.

    You have to be ready to go to combatives at any moment if the situation appears to be escalating. Since there is no guarantee you will emerge victorious if you resist, most instructors I know say to hand over the cash but be ready to engage regardless. Anybody who reads my thoughts here will know that I advise going off-script no matter what. Do not play the victim game. Behave in an unexpected manner that doesn't escalate the situation and guide it to follow your script, if you can.

    The reason we train is because we can develop our combatives before the attack happens. The attacker will not understand that you have spent hundreds, maybe thousands of hours practicing the disarm, the fast draw, the strike, the takedown. You may, if you have worked at it, be able to engage and eliminate the threat in a way that the attacker simply cannot resist because he has never experienced such a level of resistance.

    The requirement to resist is entirely scenario specific. In some cases, like "get in the car," it is mandatory. In others, like "hand over the wallet," it's optional.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  13. #12
    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    To the posts that are taking about guys wearing masks or not. If they are wearing a mask it can also be a sign for trouble because they can murder you and any witness will not be able to I.D. them. it works both ways.

    I have done presentations, and written papers on this topic. The FBI stats show that it is much better to resist than do nothing. They also say that a firearm is the safest, most effective tool to use, and results in the fewest injuries to the defender when using a firearm.
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    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    I don't know about statistics, but there are plenty of actual examples (do a google search) where after compliance the victim was harmed. The odds of getting struck by lightning are relatively low, but I'm not going to hold up a 1 iron during a thunder storm and test the percentages.
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revdej View Post
    Are there any statistics that back up the thought that complying with a bg does not necessarily mean you will not be harmed?
    Statistics that track a tie to compliance and subsequent harm? To my knowledge, no published statistics by the U.S. Dept. of Justice, the CDC or anyone else has shown such data is kept, let alone statistically tied to each other and reported. That doesn't mean such data doesn't exist; it only means I have yet to see such data.

    The daily newspapers in major metro areas across the country seem to be reasonably full of examples on either side of the fence, with respect to complying or not complying. I can recall having read a few accounts in which people thought to do whatever the robbers said, only to find out they were being gulled.

    About the only sure thing in a violent crime against you is that you'll never know what a given criminal will do, since you'll never know the full and complete list of what the criminal is looking for.


    Well meaning sheep will often say, "Well, if you just give them the car/money/jewlery/etc, they'll just go away and nobody will be harmed. Things can be replaced."
    That presumes a given criminal is looking for car/money/jewelry (aka, "things"). I've read enough reports of statements from people involved in crimes (as victims, witnesses or the criminals themselves) to conclude there's a healthy desire for exercising power over the victims amongst criminals. To hinge all of one's hopes on the idea that the given criminal of the moment is going to be one sort or the other seems to be about as fragile a hope as can be had.

    For myself, I'm assume that anyone daring enough to threaten me with violence is perfectly capable of following through with the threats, particularly if that person's in my face and in possession of an effective tool. While such assumptions well turn out to be incorrect in a given situation, I'd much rather be incorrect than to underestimate a given idiot, particularly one who is in my face spewing death threats and manifesting an apparent desire to follow through with those threats.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Moriah,

    Welcome to the forum...

    Now that you have a firearm, get some training, please. You don't specify what you purchased, handgun or long gun... For home defense, a long gun, preferrably a shotgun, might be best for the untrained.

    Your notion to hole up in the bedroom with the weapon pointed at the door is probably the safest for you... get behind the bed or a dresser. talk to 911, explain your situation... tell them exactly (second door on the right in the hallway off the kitchen... whatever) where you are in the house, tell them you will not disarm until you hear a codeword, tell them the codeword... "pineapple upside down cake", whatever... if there is banging on the bedroom door, threaten to fire thru it unless the codeword is given.

    Anyone can say, "it's the police, put down your weapon, everything's okay." Of course, the bad guys could hear the codeword over the radio units... but it's just an extra precaution... you can even instruct them to come thru the door with their hands empty... real cops may/won't want to do that... but you want to be certain in any way you can....

    I don't know the nature of your neighborhood break ins... or your experience with weapons, so I'm just giving you some basic ideas.

    If you are unfamiliar with your firearm, Please get a trusted, experienced friend; or qualified instructor to help you run the weapon... learn how to care for it and how best to use it... it is your lifeline.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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