October 24th, 2010 01:51 PM
"Relevant Practice", recoil personalities and your CCW of choice...
Yesterday I came to the realization that I need to spend significantly more time at the range shooting with my primary CCW (SIG SP2022, .40)-
About 90% of my last few months at the local range have been spent firing my Ruger GP100, .357 Magnum with medium to hot loads. I figured it was time to run about 100 rounds through my SIG so I would need to take it apart and clean it since I use it for concealed carry. I also figured that- even though it has been a little while since I shot the autoloader- since I often shoot sizzlers through my GP100, handling the recoil from my '2022 would be no surprise.
The first shot did in fact catch me off-guard. The *amount* of recoil was not at all the problem, rather it was the *type* of recoil produced by the autoloader versus the revolver; a substantially different recoil personality.
Massad Ayoob stresses in at least one of his books, the importance of relevant practice with your CCW; no doubt he hit the nail on the head with a drop forge on that one. I have come to the conclusion that such importance cannot be over-emphasized, and I am only talking recoil personalities here. There are numerous other reasons as well to practice, practice, PRACTICE with what you carry!
Just thought I'd share my experience.
Four Rugers, three SIG Sauers; my SP101 3-1/16" .357 is shown in my avatar. I like reliability.
October 24th, 2010 06:30 PM
Completely agree with this, when I go with my buddies they all want to shoot the .22's and 9's because of the cost but i'll throw the extra couple bucks down to make 90% of my shooting with the .45 I carry. I've noticed a huge improvement in my draw speed and point of aim shooting from putting a few thousand down the barrel of my EDC. Also take care to "practice" and not just waste ammo I see too many guys just popping off shots to run through a 100 pack as fast as possible that makes no sense to me.
October 24th, 2010 06:31 PM
Good point. That's why they make cheap FMJ ammo in just about every caliber. It's accurate enough at combat ranges and provides the same recoil profile as my defense rounds. It's also more than the recoil profile. It's the trigger pull, safeties, reloading, malfunction drills, etc. - the whole package. Every firearm has its own feel and quirks. The proficiency that comes with practice, practice, practice also builds confidence should the SHTF someday.
I learned a piece of wisdom years ago that applied to sports but works here as well: Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong. The military bases its training programs on that general premise.
"To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them"
- George Mason, American Statesman (1725-92)
October 24th, 2010 06:46 PM
No matter what I shoot, I always squeeze in enough time to burn through a few magazines in both my CCW weapons....just to keep up on how it feels and to make sure all is right with the set up.
Have Gun ~ Will Carry
October 24th, 2010 07:45 PM
It is not only the nature or personality of the recoil, but the management of it. With the various opinions, etc on the effectiveness of todays calibers and ammunition in stopping threats and the need for multiple shots, I have a couple drills that I do. They are, three shots within a half second, inclusive and six shots within a second, inclusive and keep the shots within a 8-9" circle at seven yards.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
October 24th, 2010 09:08 PM
IMHO its more about the style of the recoil than the force of it, I can make groupings in .45 acp that I never could in .40 s&w, why, because a .45 tends to push back, its a heavier round that goes subsonic and just mosies its way out of the barrel, a .40 snaps because it comes out of the barrel so much faster, therefore my groupings with three mags in my 40 is basketball sized if i fire as fast as i can untill completley empty, but my .45 groups stay consistent, hence why I am switching to .45 for EDC
"The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."
October 24th, 2010 10:52 PM
Practice with any firearm is a perishable skill... any practice or training is likely to be good, but practice with the tool you keep closest to you is the most important.
NRA Endowment Member
October 25th, 2010 01:31 AM
There are those that feel trigger time is trigger time which is true to a point. Once you have mastered the basic skills then you can keep those basic skills current by shooting another firearm in a smaller or less expensive caliber, however just as has been stated here nothing will take the place of shooting the real thing.
Whenever I train with sub calibers they are in firearms that replicate the full size gun as closely as I can. My 1911 sub caliber is a Kimber upper on my TRP so I have the same trigger, safety and so on. My carbine is a SIG 556 and I have the 522 set up the same way even to the point that I switch optics, Leupold CQ/T and the Burris XTR between the two. My GSG-5 will fill in for MP-5 training and so on.
My rule of thumb is two to one. For every two rounds of sub caliber training I will have one round of full size training it does not matter how many rounds are fired in each session it is the quality of the training involved.
"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013
October 26th, 2010 02:20 PM
I agree w/pretty much everything said. You need to practice w/your EDC at least monthly, IMNSHO, and do so with the same type of rounds you'll carry. Right now, I'm practicing every weekend, putting at least 100 - 150rnds thru mine every time I fire. I've got another pistol that I'll run maybe four magazines thru, as well, just so I remain as proficient as possible with it, as well. In all of this, I also practice off-hand shooting, to include various stances, supported, two-hand, etc... I'd practice point shoot, but none of the regular ranges around here allow that, so have to wait 'til I get up to my folks next time.
Arkansas Concealed Carry Instructor #12-751
If guns kill people, then:
Pincels miss spel werds;
Cars make people drive drunk;
And spoons made Rosie O'Donnel fat.
October 26th, 2010 02:34 PM
Great topic for a thread OP. Lots of great responses too.
I have a pretty decent handgun collection and it's very hard not to shoot a variety of them at the range.
My wife and I need to spend more time shooting our cc handguns and will do so.
"Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less".
General Robert E. Lee
October 26th, 2010 02:34 PM
I agree, that it's very true a person's recent lack of focused, targeted usage of the tools can dictate how smoothly training can go. It's true of the use of mathematics or statistics, the use of simple construction tools or woodworking tools, and it's true of the use of one's defensive tools.
Originally Posted by Crashbox
What was it ... in the early 1990's film Love Affair (Beatty, Bening), in describing how professional athletes become "great," the main character makes a distinction between thinking and reacting, stating that "the great ones don't," find themselves not having to think, that is. That comes pretty close to what we're saying here, that if one trains hard enough such that the required reactions and movements necessary for a given situation become a part of the muscle memory and our minds to the point it's built-in, then we can find ourselves not having to think when a real situation occurs. Instead, being so well-practiced with the tools, movements and scenarios, one can simply do what needs to be done.
While most of my shot-firing training comes on the range, for at least my first handful of magazines I try very hard to mentally focus on simple scenarios blowing sideways right in front of me and then working through the simple movements required to deal with the situation. I try to vary the scenarios each range trip to a different two or three situations, then play those out. Ideally, each and every day of training would be done with a couple other people, focusing on realistic, hands-on scenarios that need to be dealt with, deadly tools being only one possible way these scenarios play out. Red/blue training pistols and knives are invaluable, as is competent, high-energy FOF guidance and training.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
October 30th, 2010 12:35 AM
When I practice I shoot hand loads mostly, but loaded 90% of "full house" so that I am comfortable handling the hot loads I carry (Federal HST LE 125gr Sig .357) in my baby Glock 33. Definitely kicks different from my old 1911 with 200gr +p type hot loads. It's a question of "sharp" vs "hard" recoil. I have trouble describing the difference it's hard to verbalize or quantify. I've fired a custom Model 29 .44mag with a 3" barrel and that kicked something fierce! I expected it to kick less than a 6" bbl model 29 .44 mag since the bullet is in the barrel a shorter time with less of the powder burned before it exits the handgun. That's my theory anyway and I'm sticking to it.
Recoil is very subjective for me, I tend to ignore it and shoot. For me it's more about getting back into a good sight picture for follow-on shots. I tend to gravitate toward handguns that are easy to control for fast follow-on shots. So a sharp quick recoil cycle like a "bark" rather than a "boom" muzzle blast comparison works best for me (controlling the handgun in recoil).
"It's time to nut up or shut up" - Woody Harrelson, "Tallahassee" in "Zombieland"
October 30th, 2010 09:22 AM
Y'know, some people make a big deal over the difference between "practice" and "training." That always strikes me as being an artificial distinction. How you use your range time is completely up to you. It can be quality time well spent, or a waste of time and money.
The target range offers the opportunity to test different kinds of ammo, to familiarize yourself with recoil and realignment, front-sight focus, breath control, problem management, and similar skills that should be mastered before engaging in tactical training. They are very complementary activities and work in tandem. Like ccw9mm says above, what's going on in your mind is very important and you can visualize as many scenarios as your creativity allows.
Range time is good for developing kinesthetic awareness of your weapon's controls and discovering and correcting bad habits. Grip seems to be a very-much-overlooked aspect of practice, but it's a fundamental that deserves constant work. Hand pressure should favor "front and back" and be more relaxed "side to side." The position of the pad of your trigger finger is important, as is your trigger drawback and release. Practicing safe handling procedures is potentially more important than anything else above.
The HD and CC weapons are all equal in my concern. You want to be expert with everything you train to use.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
October 30th, 2010 12:48 PM
"Y'know, some people make a big deal over the difference between "practice" and "training." That always strikes me as being an artificial distinction. How you use your range time is completely up to you. It can be quality time well spent, or a waste of time and money. "
Personally, I have a very simple distinction between practice and training. Work on a single skill, accuracy, speed, reloading, movement, etc is practice. Simultaneous work on multiple skills combined is training.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
By Foo909 in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
Last Post: December 25th, 2011, 02:34 AM
By paramedic70002 in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
Last Post: October 12th, 2010, 02:29 AM
By kashton in forum Defensive Carry Guns
Last Post: October 27th, 2007, 11:13 PM
Search tags for this page
ccw of choice
sp2022 40 ccw
your ccw choice forum
Click on a term to search for related topics.
» DefensiveCarry Sponsors