Carry near school zones - Page 2

Carry near school zones

This is a discussion on Carry near school zones within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I just read the back of my Michigan CPL and it says school or school property. I've never read anything about school zones or anything ...

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  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array skysoldier29's Avatar
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    I just read the back of my Michigan CPL and it says school or school property. I've never read anything about school zones or anything like that. If live near a school where they have signs posted school zone on both sides of the road near the school I don't believe that is school property. I don't see it as a problem as long as you don't go on the campus. I would call the Sheriff of the county you live in as he / she should be on the gun board that approves MI permits.


  2. #17
    Member Array BurgDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    States cannot overturn Federal law as someone else posted. Even if the state law allows it, Federal law does not.
    No but states are not permitted to enforce federal law either, only federal LEOs are permitted to do that. It has to be a state law for local LEOs to enforce and if there is a federal law that overlaps the state law the state law is invalid unless the federal law explicitly says otherwise.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurgDog View Post
    No but states are not permitted to enforce federal law either, only federal LEOs are permitted to do that. It has to be a state law for local LEOs to enforce and if there is a federal law that overlaps the state law the state law is invalid unless the federal law explicitly says otherwise.
    I certainly could be mistaken, but I think your interpretation above is a mis-characterization based in part on misunderstanding of what just happened with the AZ law.

    The real problem with the federal law being discussed is that it uses the term "firearm" instead of handgun. That is so overly broad that it could be applied to shotguns and long guns if one interpreted only on the letter of the law. IT also leaves additional situations in a state of ambiguity. The parked car being only one scenario.

  4. #19
    Member Array BurgDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I certainly could be mistaken, but I think your interpretation above is a mis-characterization based in part on misunderstanding of what just happened with the AZ law.
    How is it a miss-characterization - it the crux of the finding in that case. Not only that but also that local LEOs are prohibited from reporting violation of federal law to the feds. The federal law has to explicitly allow local LEO action or local LEOs need special training and permission in order to get involved in federal legal issues. A state can't get involved by passing overlapping state laws.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array swinokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skysoldier29 View Post
    I just read the back of my Michigan CPL and it says school or school property. I've never read anything about school zones or anything like that. If live near a school where they have signs posted school zone on both sides of the road near the school I don't believe that is school property. I don't see it as a problem as long as you don't go on the campus. I would call the Sheriff of the county you live in as he / she should be on the gun board that approves MI permits.
    The issue is not your state law. It's the Federal GFSZA.Google it. The 1000 foot zone is referenced there.

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array swinokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurgDog View Post
    No but states are not permitted to enforce federal law either, only federal LEOs are permitted to do that. It has to be a state law for local LEOs to enforce and if there is a federal law that overlaps the state law the state law is invalid unless the federal law explicitly says otherwise.
    totally agree. Chances of a Federal prosecution are small, but exist nonetheless.

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Several posters have made comments along the lines of "...1000 feet from a school". It's worse than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by 18 USC 921 Definitions
    (a) As used in this chapter—
    (25) The term “school zone” means—
    (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or
    private school; or
    (B)within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of
    a public, parochial or private school.
    School zones extend 1000 feet in all directions from the boundaries of the school grounds, not from the school building.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurgDog View Post
    How is it a miss-characterization - it the crux of the finding in that case. Not only that but also that local LEOs are prohibited from reporting violation of federal law to the feds. The federal law has to explicitly allow local LEO action or local LEOs need special training and permission in order to get involved in federal legal issues. A state can't get involved by passing overlapping state laws.
    No, you are generalizing from a specific example, the AZ immigration law case, and that case has some aspects to it which do not apply in general. I don't want to argue about the AZ law (Bumper prohibits that) so let's address your assertion with some concrete examples showing that local officials are not as asserted above in post 19 " prohibited from reporting violation of federal law to the feds. "

    Do you really think that upon apprehending a drug dealer with fake money on his person the law prevents the locals from notifying Treasury? Do you really think that upon examining a state income tax return which is clearly bogus the state won't notify IRS?

    Or, do you really think that if a State Attorney General investigates a financial crime he can't pick up the phone and report Federal aspects to the FBI or Federal prosecutors.

    Even now, the local police are quite able to turn criminals over to the Feds and it happens all the time. The recent court ruling doesn't change that. It turned on a slightly different set of issues. I can't elaborate because it would drag the thread way off topic and violate Bumper's wishes that we not discuss the AZ case.

  9. #24
    Member Array BurgDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unloved View Post
    Several posters have made comments along the lines of "...1000 feet from a school". It's worse than that.
    School zones extend 1000 feet in all directions from the boundaries of the school grounds, not from the school building.
    When Congress first passed this law it was struck down by the Supreme Court as not being supported by any constitutional grant of federal power. Congress then went back and added a declaration, without any rational backing, that this effected interstate commerce and passed the same law again. The current supreme court has decided not to question congress's findings of fact on any law passed, no matter how ridiculous those finding are so this law is now constitutional as written.

    The real underlying goal is back door gun control by making it illegal to possess guns in a huge swath of territory. This law is so over the top that it is almost impossible to know when you are breaking it and it is yet another law subject to arbitrary enforcement that can be used to arrest people they want to arrest for some other reason but don't have a legal reason to do so.

    As only the feds can enforce it, local LEOs can't and the feds haven't made any real attempt to actually enforce it as is their policy choice right, I'd say the law is effectively null and can be ignored with extremely small risk.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    Knowing your local laws is always important. Also.......private property is not in the school zone even if it's across the street. One's home is one's domain no matter in what proximity to a no carry zone.
    I bet there are a lot of drug users and dealers in jails who mistakenly thought exactly that with regard to Drug Free School Zones.

  11. #26
    Member Array BurgDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    No, you are generalizing from a specific example, the AZ immigration law case, and that case has some aspects to it which do not apply in general. I don't want to argue about the AZ law (Bumper prohibits that) so let's address your assertion with some concrete examples showing that local officials are not as asserted above in post 19 " prohibited from reporting violation of federal law to the feds. "
    The federal law has to be written so as to permit action by local LEOs and local action must conform. I know what criminals with a federal warrant outstanding are turned over to the feds, I wasn't aware of any case where anyone is arrested by local police on a purely federal violation where the local police did not have the required training and permission to enforce federal laws. My understanding is that the Federal GFSZA falls in this category.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by willmkent View Post
    Ok, so the law cannot stop me from owning a handgun in my home and being able to leave the premises while carrying my firearm right? My friends mentioned that a firearm cannot be present within 1000 feet of a school zone, which my condo is completely within that range
    I wouldn't listen to your friend....he's only giving you half of the information. Go read the law yourself.

    Bottomline: If you live within the magical distance, you are not prohibited from owning a firearm in your home/on your property. If someone wants to wet their pants because you are loading your guns into the back of your car, that is their problem...you are not breaking the law.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I bet there are a lot of drug users and dealers in jails who mistakenly thought exactly that with regard to Drug Free School Zones.
    The difference being that there is an express exemption for possession of a firearm on private property within 1000 feet of a school, where no such exemption exists for illicit drugs.

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  14. #29
    Senior Member Array swinokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    I wouldn't listen to your friend....he's only giving you half of the information. Go read the law yourself.

    Bottomline: If you live within the magical distance, you are not prohibited from owning a firearm in your home/on your property. If someone wants to wet their pants because you are loading your guns into the back of your car, that is their problem...you are not breaking the law.


    Just make sure the car is also on private property. If not, the firearm needs to be unloaded and in a locked case to comply with GFSZA unless you have a state issued CCW

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I bet there are a lot of drug users and dealers in jails who mistakenly thought exactly that with regard to Drug Free School Zones.
    IMO.....criminals don't get into the mix here. It's the law abiding citizen we're concerned about.

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