Active Shooter Response Training...what a joke

This is a discussion on Active Shooter Response Training...what a joke within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; We had a little presentation the other day on what to do if there is an active shooter on the base, a la Ft Hood. ...

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Thread: Active Shooter Response Training...what a joke

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array C9H13NO3's Avatar
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    Active Shooter Response Training...what a joke

    We had a little presentation the other day on what to do if there is an active shooter on the base, a la Ft Hood. To sum it up, find a room, lock and barricade the door, turn out the lights, and pray to God you're not found. Then wait for the police, the "professionals" to come handle the situation. Great. Thanks for the info.

    At the end, someone brought up the issue of why we CHL holders can't have firearms on base. The police officer's response was: "We all wear the same uniform. We wouldn't be able to tell which shooter is the good guy, and which is the bad guy." Also, our fight isn't on base, it's overseas, so we should let the police handle it on base, even though they admitted it will be at least a 10 minute response time even on base.

    Maybe the same way it gets worked out when everyone is wearing civilian clothes...hmmm. Do you really need a guy in robes and a turban shooting an AK to contrast who is good and bad? When one shooter gets stopped and ALL the shooting stops...the good guy probably won.

    We weren't there to debate carry on base, but the officer's reasoning for why we cant carry on base was inane.
    -Ryan

    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

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  3. #2
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    Array HotGuns's Avatar
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    Yep, thats pretty much the mindset anywhere you go.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  4. #3
    Member Array cerakoter's Avatar
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    Hey, you have the same program as a 5th grader!

    Somehow you are only a responsible adult when packing guns and explosives in another country? FUBAR that is... I'd have a stash gun near the barricks if I was still in... just saying...

  5. #4
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    Yeah, it's so hard to tell that the guy killing people with the weapon is the bad guy! So... how is it again that the Police can tell???
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
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  6. #5
    Member Array MissouriBoun's Avatar
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    Did you forget? Only the BAD guys have guns.

  7. #6
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    Lets think about the difficulties encountered here.

    "All units repsond, shots fired, Anywhere Highschool..."

    Every LEO within radio earshot is going to run like a scalded dog to the Highschool. They know only one thing...they have been trained to kill the active shooter as quickly as possible. They have only one goal...to kill the shooter without being killed themselves.
    In the back of their minds, they are thinking that no law abiding person will be carrying a gun at the highschool and that ANYONE they see carrying a weapon of any kind is a threat until proven otherwise.
    A plain clothes cop, if he happens to get there will have some kind of ID that will be displayed so that he dosent get shot by his own people. All others will be in uniform.

    When I jump out of my patrol car, or even my personal vehicle and I don my police issued vest, and I see some dude crouched down using a corner for cover, what am I suppose to assume? I am supposed to asssume that he is a legal CHL holder that just happened to be there or am I to line up the sights of whatever I am carrying on his chest and tell him to drop his gun while taking up 3 pounds of slack on a 4 pound trigger?
    Am I to assume that he is not going to shoot me? Is he trying to move to cover? Is he aware that I am there? Is he lining up for a better shot? Is he one of several? Is he part of a group to provide cover for the rest of the group? Is he covering an exit so that he can shoot escaping students and teachers?

    Think People. It's never as easy as it sounds or looks. There are so many potential scenarios with active shooters that one wont have a clue until they get there and even then it may take time for the picture to become clear.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
    Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
    http://bobbailey1959.wordpress.com/

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array sdprof's Avatar
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    Well, now you've made a good case for the CHL badges and sashes
    ~~~~~
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    I carry always not because I go places trouble is likely, but because trouble has a habit of not staying in its assigned zone.

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    I was being sarcastic in my first post.

    It is those who are on the scene when the shooting starts that have the best opportunity to clearly see exactly who the bad guy is! That's why the best case scenario is to have people who are armed, able to defend themselves, there when the slaughter begins!

    Of course when the thundering herd arrives things will be very difficult to sort out. The foolishness is that the very means to protect yourself from imminent harm or death has been taken away and all trust put in a response team that for all intent and purpose can only clean up the killing field and file reports!

    Nobody said it's easy for the responders nor is it that they don't want to save the victims, but the reality is that it is the victims responsibility to save themselves.

    When the good guys arrive, then it's time to make your weapon disappear and comply with the authorities. Unless of course you have already been neutered or killed.
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

  10. #9
    Member Array cerakoter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Think People. It's never as easy as it sounds or looks. There are so many potential scenarios with active shooters that one wont have a clue until they get there and even then it may take time for the picture to become clear.
    I would gladly take the chance of a MP/COP shooting me in friendly fire as I'm dropping the BG with my CCW on base over hiding in the closest waiting for them to show up while my fellow Marines are being killed outside. Wouldn't anyone? So strawman argument aside, the Military is the last place I would suspect a FUBAR policy like this to be in place. We expect them to play by "big boy rules" in war, why treat them like 5th graders on base?

    PS> Do you think the pressure of you having to determine who is friend or foe outweighs the right for them to protect themselves?

    PPS>Your finger should not be on the trigger until you have decided to kill them, not while you are trying to evaluate the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    In the back of their minds, they are thinking that no law abiding person will be carrying a gun at the highschool and that ANYONE they see carrying a weapon of any kind is a threat until proven otherwise.
    A plain clothes cop, if he happens to get there will have some kind of ID that will be displayed so that he dosent get shot by his own people. All others will be in uniform.
    Interesting, as every COP I've read on forums tells me that ID mean nothing to them on the scene. Also, the first line of thinking needs to change with the times. People DO CCW at school and there is no law against it in many states. They DO CCW at malls that are going to be getting Mumbai attacks soon, so maybe we need to address these issues in training for active shooter responses instead of the "wait for the calvary" mentality that we have now?

  11. #10
    Member Array cerakoter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdprof View Post
    Well, now you've made a good case for the CHL badges and sashes
    I disagree. He made a good argument for better training and NOT assuming everyone with a gun is a bad guy.

  12. #11
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    Check out the ALICE program. It works and is slowly taking over from the mentality that you have mentioned. I happen to be an instructor and do this on a regular basis; its sickening what people actually think is a good idea to save lives.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  13. #12
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    It is those who are on the scene when the shooting starts that have the best opportunity to clearly see exactly who the bad guy is! That's why the best case scenario is to have people who are armed, able to defend themselves, there when the slaughter begins!
    I agree.

    PS> Do you think the pressure of you having to determine who is friend or foe outweighs the right for them to protect themselves?
    Nope. Never even thought it. Fact of the matter is, if you have a gun in a place you aren't supposed to and you happen to be right in the middle of an Active Shoot you are a target for any LEO that sees you, like it or not. To think other wise is dangerous and naive.

    PPS>Your finger should not be on the trigger until you have decided to kill them, not while you are trying to evaluate the situation
    Funny you should mention that. Just a few weeks ago I went to training that was completely contrary to that thought. Too many cops have been killed trying to evaluate a situation when they should have been shooting.

    Ceracoter, just so you know, I personally do not believe in target rich environments. If you had more than 10 posts here you would already know that. These touchy feely liberal no gun policy's let the Police do it all mentalitys only serve a shooter, they don't do a dang thing to help good people survive. Its about time for policy's that guarantee failure to be changed into something that makes a shooter think twice before he does something stupid. With the idiots we have in high places I don't see that happening any time soon.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
    Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
    http://bobbailey1959.wordpress.com/

  14. #13
    Member Array Hkchris's Avatar
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    HotGuns,
    The point is in the 10 minute response time its over before you show up. Either everyone has already been shot or the Soldier with the CHL has taken care of business and most likely re-holstered.

  15. #14
    Member Array Hkchris's Avatar
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    So, what will it take to finally allow Soldiers with CHL's to protect themselves and their loved ones in an active shooter situation?

    The terrorists plan on using these tactics inside the U.S., plans have already been thwarted on more than one base, an active shooter has already killed multiple Soldiers on one base and common sense tells you that post police are not prepared and their response time only allows for the slaughter of innocent unarmed Soldiers and Civilians.

    Many of us Soldiers are better trained, more experienced, and more qualified to handle the situation. We just need the proper tools. In this case it's as simple as allowing CHL carriers to carry.

  16. #15
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    Just another example of society wanting to keep victims unarmed to keep them safer...never have understood that concept.
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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