Legal question about "Firearms Prohibited" Signs

Legal question about "Firearms Prohibited" Signs

This is a discussion on Legal question about "Firearms Prohibited" Signs within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Sorry if this has been covered before. My question is about "Firearms Prohibited" Signs on private owned businesses. What type of liablity are they placing ...

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Thread: Legal question about "Firearms Prohibited" Signs

  1. #1
    New Member Array BrianM's Avatar
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    Legal question about "Firearms Prohibited" Signs

    Sorry if this has been covered before.

    My question is about "Firearms Prohibited" Signs on private owned businesses. What type of liablity are they placing themselves under by not allowing CC permit holders to provide their own personal protection?

    In my state, it is illegal to for me to carry into such a business with the sign posted at the entrance. The personal property owner is exercising control off their property. Are they also taking on the responsiblity of my personal protection when I enter their property?

    My personal opinion about those signs are that they only stop the legal CC holders from protecting themselves and others in the business. It will not stop someone meaning to do harm illegally to others.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I doubt that they could be held responsible for the ramifications of criminal activity.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    VIP Member Array tkruf's Avatar
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    I agree, doubt they will be held accountable for anything that were to happen to you in their store stemming from criminal activity. Two choices here, take your chances, or spend your money somewhere else.
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    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    You don't have to enter their business. Your right about the criminals not obeying the signs, but then again criminals don't obey laws against crime.

    I doubt that you would have any legal recourse from actions that happen inside the business that was posted.

    Of course in AR, the sign needs to be
    clearly readable at a distance of not less than ten feet (10')
    that the "carrying of a handgun is prohibited."
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    New Member Array BrianM's Avatar
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    I understand about the business owner not being liable for criminl activities. But are they not taking away my right to protect myself if something happens? We all CC because of the "what if". I'm am also asking this because of my place of employment will not allow CC. Signs posted. By not allowing me to protect myself, are they assuming the responsiblity? I work nights and it's not in the greatest part of town so my reason is not to just be a hard hard about this. Thanks for any input. I would like to find good facts to present to my employer, so they can change the policy.

  6. #6
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianM View Post
    Sorry if this has been covered before.

    My question is about "Firearms Prohibited" Signs on private owned businesses. What type of liablity are they placing themselves under by not allowing CC permit holders to provide their own personal protection?

    In my state, it is illegal to for me to carry into such a business with the sign posted at the entrance. The personal property owner is exercising control off their property. Are they also taking on the responsiblity of my personal protection when I enter their property?

    My personal opinion about those signs are that they only stop the legal CC holders from protecting themselves and others in the business. It will not stop someone meaning to do harm illegally to others.
    Brian! Say brother! Welcome to the club! Home state boy!
    Never apologize your first time out. And especially without a formal introduction thread!
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    I've posted quite a bit over the years about the 'posted' signs and I've posted about obeying and reading the written law pertaining to this subject.
    It all boils down to this................you need to obey the laws of the state as set forth. Best part is...it's a two way street. Those who post or prohibit CC must also follow the law as set forth and they need to follow the letter of the law just like you and me. When you know the written law, you'll know better and you'll be able to make your own decision based on that, and not be intimidated by some silly corporate sign or decal at any place of business in this state. You'll be able to determine (by the written laws) if the posting is legal or illegal and therefore you have the right to do what you're doing legally.
    (19) (A) Any place at the discretion of the person or entity exercising control over the physical location of the place by placing at each entrance to the place a written notice clearly readable at a distance of not less than ten (10) feet that “carrying a handgun is prohibited”.
    Found here on the ASP website: http://www.asp.state.ar.us/divisions...l_law.html#law
    IMO.....and "legally" by the letter of the law...the notice needs to be "written" and the words are specified as: "carrying a handgun is prohibited". This law does not make mention of a picture, decal or sign.....it does not leave allowance in the wording like 'no guns allowed', or any such thing. To me the law is specific and I obey the laws when it comes to CC. Just remember that places specifically prohibited under state law don't need to post the "legal" warning. Knowing your state laws is one of the best parts of CC once you've been granted the opportunity.
    I'm glad to see another home state carrier on the forum! You know where to find me. IMO...this is the best places to be and ask questions without consulting an attorney.

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    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianM View Post
    I understand about the business owner not being liable for criminl activities. But are they not taking away my right to protect myself if something happens? We all CC because of the "what if". I'm am also asking this because of my place of employment will not allow CC. Signs posted. By not allowing me to protect myself, are they assuming the responsiblity? I work nights and it's not in the greatest part of town so my reason is not to just be a hard hard about this. Thanks for any input. I would like to find good facts to present to my employer, so they can change the policy.
    Welcome to the forum!!! Much of your constitutional rights are only guaranteed from government. Your employer, not. Depending on your state's laws, your employer may not be held to the same standard as police with regard to your right to bear arms, free speech, or unreasonable search and seizure. Your employer can and does infringe on these and more rights every day. I went through discovering this when the parent company of my employer came out with new policies regarding firearms on the premesis. The building has been posted, but this change specified that you could not have it in your car, which is YOUR personal property. According to VA law, your right to a reasonable expectation of privacy was diminished when the new policy indicated the employer had a right to search your car for any or no reason to see if a gun was in it and you could be fired if it was or you refused to let them search. This is something that the police can't legally do, but your employer can. Fortunately, the company policy had a "without written permission" clause and I received that permission from the person that wrote the policy. I keep it handy. In the event that had not been granted, you could have mailed yourself an empty envelope or small box. Or lets say you bought something off of ebay and you kept the empty mail package. You could keep the empty package in your car and place your weapon in it temporarily while you go into work and seal it with tape. Your employer may have the right to search your car, but they do not have the right to search your mail. That is a Federal offense. (understand that the gun was never actually in the mail. they do not have a right to look at your mail).

    Your employer can also implement social media network policies and fire you for what you post on the internet (facebook, blogs, forums) if it isn't consistent with the company image. This is your personal time, personal matters, yet they can fire you for it. So much for free speech. Lets say the company that bans guns on the property and their image is anti gun, they could fire you for posting pro gun related material on the net (such as pictures of yourself with guns, etc.). This is why I try to keep my identity somewhat obscure and I do not participate on facebook. Our rights are being trampled on every day by someone...and our employers are being given more and more autonomy to do so. Welcome to reality. I understand where you are coming from and agree with your issues and concerns. Not likely to change though, just get worse.
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    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianM View Post
    I understand about the business owner not being liable for criminl activities. But are they not taking away my right to protect myself if something happens? We all CC because of the "what if". I'm am also asking this because of my place of employment will not allow CC. Signs posted. By not allowing me to protect myself, are they assuming the responsiblity? I work nights and it's not in the greatest part of town so my reason is not to just be a hard hard about this. Thanks for any input. I would like to find good facts to present to my employer, so they can change the policy.
    Welcome to the forum!
    As a general rule, you don't have any rights on their property. You have the right to decide if you want to obey their rules and enter their property. If you don't accept giving up your Second Amendment Right as a condition of entering their property, go somewhere else. Unless and until the legislature and the courts say otherwise, the property rights of the business owner (establishing code of conduct on their property) pretty much trump our personal rights. In some states there are exceptions for your vehicle in a company parking lot, but those are not universal.
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    New Member Array BrianM's Avatar
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    Thanks to all that replied. All your answers make perfect sense to me. Now I must decide what is more important, "feed the family" or "CC at work". LOL. Looks like I won't be making my employer change their policy anytime soon. Thanks again, you guys ROCK!

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    Here is a great resource... http://www.usacarry.com/
    See the two maps in the upper left corner...use the lower map for info.
    Each map link has an additional link to state laws.
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    Only you are responsible for your protection. If you willingly give up that right--by voluntarily unarming and entering a "no gun" business--you assume full responsibility. No one "forced" you to disarm and enter. Don't try to throw blame on someone else for your decisions and actions.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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    Senior Member Array Sky Pilot's Avatar
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    This varies according to each state.
    Here in the less than intelligent state of Ohio, carrying into a posted premises is verboten.
    As far as the liability a business incurs by posting --
    Ohio (again) holds harmless any legal entity for choosing to post, or choosing to not post.
    Harmless as far as any criminal wrongdoing.
    There is, however, the civil to consider.
    It has been argued that such a business assumes "Overwhelming Liability" by refusing to allow a CC licenseholder that layer of protection.
    To my knowledge this has not been pursued in litigation.
    I would refer you to an attorney for the correct answer for your particular questions, in your particular jurisdiction.
    As with any free advice I offer, if I know so daggone much, why haven't I made a million dollars and retired, eh?
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    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Only you are responsible for your protection. If you willingly give up that right--by voluntarily unarming and entering a "no gun" business--you assume full responsibility. No one "forced" you to disarm and enter. Don't try to throw blame on someone else for your decisions and actions.
    Bingo!

    Fitch

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    Distinguished Member Array AKsrule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianM View Post

    My question is about "Firearms Prohibited" Signs on private owned businesses. What type of liablity are they placing themselves under by not allowing CC permit holders to provide their own personal protection?

    In my state, it is illegal to for me to carry into such a business with the sign posted at the entrance. The personal property owner is exercising control off their property. Are they also taking on the responsiblity of my personal protection when I enter their property?
    ----
    Doubtful.........Don't know your local law - but -

    If someone mugs you on a public street can you sue the city or local PD. ?

    If you go to a Bar and a drunk slugs you can you sue the barowner?

    If a burglar breaks into your home and falls down some stairs can he sue you?

    There is a BIG difference between Criminal and CIVIL Law.

    Liability Insurance normally protects the PROPERTY OWNER - not the public.

    -------
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  15. #15
    Member Array mcgyver210's Avatar
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    Ok the way I see this is on private property it has been upheld with many lawsuits that the owner is responsible for what happens on their property as to injuries that could have been prevented. This is nothing new but as to our ability to take care of ourselves being stripped by the property owner this hasn't been tested allot yet but it would seem you could argue they knew of an increased risk to their customers & didn't take enough actions to prevent injury to their customers since they have actually created a hazard with their actions. Criminal activity is something they can't control but by posting signs with know extra security measures in place it could be argued they are creating a hazard.

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