"Concealed Weapons Prohibited" - Page 4

"Concealed Weapons Prohibited"

This is a discussion on "Concealed Weapons Prohibited" within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; IANL, but it appears that South Dakota trespass law would not be broken by remaining in a public place, posted or not, asked to leave ...

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Thread: "Concealed Weapons Prohibited"

  1. #46
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    IANL, but it appears that South Dakota trespass law would not be broken by remaining in a public place, posted or not, asked to leave or not.

    Guess I just might go traipsing around Toys R Us anyway!
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  2. #47
    Gaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
    Some members have had good results taking the time to write a polite, well thought out letter. Every once in a while, businesses have changed their view and taken down signs though I must admit, not so with major corporations.
    But you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar!

    Here in Nevada, I just ignore those signs too!
    From the perspective of a business owner, this is largely a financial decision. Their property liability policy gives them discounts for taking certain actions that are perceived by the underwriter as reducing risk. Having it codified in employee handbooks that firearms aren't allowed on company property is worth a discount, and although I haven't personally bought a property liability policy for a retail establishment, I imagine posting a public notice is worth some discount as well.

    Doing as suggested and writing a polite, well written letter will do more to change the policy then any flagrant disregard of the notice will. All the owner has to see is that the discount available (which is fairly minor) isn't worth as much money as he is losing in business to customers wishing to exercise their 2A right on his property. Rules of scale apply here, it is going to be harder to convince a store with 10,000 customers a month then it is to convince a store that only gets 100. If everyone chose to write a quick letter, policies will change that much faster.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    The signs are not about crime, their about liability.
    The liability argument is flawed. Under the concept of vicarious liability, the store owner by not allowing you to defend yourself, is assuming the liability of protecting you. Usually with unarmed security guards. If the store owner fails to protect you and allows you to be injured by criminal assault, he can be liable for damages.
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
    The liability argument is flawed. Under the concept of vicarious liability, the store owner by not allowing you to defend yourself, is assuming the liability of protecting you. Usually with unarmed security guards. If the store owner fails to protect you and allows you to be injured by criminal assault, he can be liable for damages.
    I've heard this argument before, but I have never been able to find a single instance of it actually happening. Do you have any verifiable examples?
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  5. #50
    Gaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
    The liability argument is flawed. Under the concept of vicarious liability, the store owner by not allowing you to defend yourself, is assuming the liability of protecting you. Usually with unarmed security guards. If the store owner fails to protect you and allows you to be injured by criminal assault, he can be liable for damages.
    The damages the owner could be liable for if you're injured is exactly what he carries the insurance policy for. The underwriters of the insurance company offer the owner a discount for taking certain steps to reduce the risk, such as posting a no firearms notice. The insurance company has come to the conclusion that it is more cost effective to post the notice and assume the liability for protecting you. I'm not an actuary, so I haven't assessed the validity of that conclusion, but from what I know of the insurance industry the decision is likely based on financial motivations, instead of enforcing their political views on policy holders.

    It's certainly easier to generate sympathy for our cause by painting ever business owner with a posted notice as a Brady Campaign zealot, but in reality the owner is just trying to control his costs like the rest of us. All it will take to make a difference is enough potential customers letting him know that they won't be doing business with his establishment because of the notice. It won't take much to tip the scales in our favor. Let them know what you planned on buying, how often you'd be returning and who you chose to patronize instead. No business likes to find out that they had a customer with buying intent in the parking lot drive away because of some tiny discount they get on the property liability insurance.

  6. #51
    Gaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSteve View Post
    I've heard this argument before, but I have never been able to find a single instance of it actually happening. Do you have any verifiable examples?
    This isn't a great example, and the piece is poorly written, but it gives at least a mild precedent:

    http://www.insurancejournal.com/news.../11/110659.htm

    Edit:

    Here is an excerpt from a book on loss prevention. Starting on pg 30 they discuss and cite case studies going both ways on potential liabilities for property owners/businesses:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=YpW...ooting&f=false

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