Deciding when to stand and fight - Page 3

Deciding when to stand and fight

This is a discussion on Deciding when to stand and fight within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by OldVet One question I like to ask for any of these scenerios is: If you didn't have a gun, would you have ...

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Thread: Deciding when to stand and fight

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    One question I like to ask for any of these scenerios is: If you didn't have a gun, would you have the same response? Too many, I feel, become involved or react a certain way only because they are armed, rather than using the firearm as a last resort.
    Anyone ever consider that being armed might make a person less likely to stand and fight. I know for a fact that I am much more willing to take crap off people if I am armed. There have actually been times I wish I was not armed so I could respond.

    Michael


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3D View Post
    I frequently remind myself that:
    [1] I'm not the only person that carries a gun, or other deadly weapon;
    [2] Many people are on prescription drugs that alter their 'good judgement';
    [3] Many people are on illicit drugs that alter their 'good judgement';
    [4] Many violent criminals have been released into the general population by the judicial system;
    [5] Many impaired individuals have been released into the general population by 'mental' institutions;
    . . [etc, etc,]

    I never know who the other guy is - who I'm dealing with. Seems stupid to escalate a situation from 'social' posturing into asocial violence without considering the risks of totally loosin' it. I'm not going to put my life on the line just to prove who has the most testosterone. I'll defend my life with extreme prejudice should the need arise -otherwise I'm not engaging.
    ^^^ This post is overflowing with WISDOM!!!! Thank you!!!! ^^^
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    I have the knowledge, ability, and skills to fight.
    I have the knowledge, ability, and skills to shoot.
    I have the WISDOM to avoid both unless the situation dictates it shouldn't be avoided...and the wisdom to determine when such a situation does or does not exist.

    Technical knowledge can be easily obtained with education.
    Technical ability can be easily obtained with practice.
    Widsom is usually obtained "the hard way."

    Good judgement comes from experience...and a lot of that comes from exercising bad judgement.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    OP : to me , it sounds like you constantly use others to protect yourself or resolve issues for you. They 'escort the two out".... doesn't mean someone is not in potential harms way, due to your buddy or you getting your buddy to shut his mouth.

    I don't agree that we need to act like 'mice' and be polite to someone who's a threat. In fact, some people will "feed" on your reaction and see you as a person that they can take advantage of and a potential victim.

    Guns, are not there to resolve feuds, arguments, debates, confrontations, etc. ... that's NOT what they are for. They are there to protect ourselves from an attack or threat on our lives. You didn't list any that I think fell into that category.

    Why be confrontational with coworkers when you can solicit support from other colleagues and use the management chain to deal with your concerns?
    .
    That's called back-stabbing where I live.... and not highly respected by the bosses either. I know I"m not there to solve all of my employees issues, or to put up with those types of games either. If I had someone doing that, I would probably be looking for a means to get rid of them.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  5. #35
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    OP : to me , it sounds like you constantly use others to protect yourself or resolve issues for you. They 'escort the two out".... doesn't mean someone is not in potential harms way, due to your buddy or you getting your buddy to shut his mouth.

    I don't agree that we need to act like 'mice' and be polite to someone who's a threat. In fact, some people will "feed" on your reaction and see you as a person that they can take advantage of and a potential victim.

    Guns, are not there to resolve feuds, arguments, debates, confrontations, etc. ... that's NOT what they are for. They are there to protect ourselves from an attack or threat on our lives. You didn't list any that I think fell into that category.

    .
    That's called back-stabbing where I live.... and not highly respected by the bosses either. I know I"m not there to solve all of my employees issues, or to put up with those types of games either. If I had someone doing that, I would probably be looking for a means to get rid of them.

  6. #36
    New Member Array bblhead's Avatar
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    I've always liked the quote
    "To survive you don't have to stand tall, but you Have to Stand Up."
    To me that means, Avoid the confrontation IF you can,
    if/when you can't, be rational in trying to defuse the level of conflict,
    but if/when the circumstances (happens too fast, the other guy opens the ball with violence etc.)
    your Primary motivation Must Be to Survive, even if that means the use of Deadly Force.
    If you are not willing to use deadly force as a Last Resort Effort to survive (and that includes Protecting who or what is yours to protect) you shouldn't be carrying.
    Likewise, if you're not willing to make that use your LAST resort, instead of your first the odds of you being "Judged by 12 instead of carried by 6" are going to be greater.
    My advice (for what it's worth) is simple to give.
    Decide, for yourself, what you are willing to give up to not have to shoot. If what's on the table AT THAT TIME is more than that, you'll react, and then deal with the consequences, alive.

    None of this is about being a Mall Ninja or backup cop protecting society.
    It's about you and yours Surviving.

    If you ever do have to shoot,
    you'll second guess yourself for years about if you could have done it different.
    But, that's something you'll be able to do at leisure.
    Instead of the alternative.

    The night sweats are better than attending the funeral.

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    OP : to me , it sounds like you constantly use others to protect yourself or resolve issues for you. They 'escort the two out".... doesn't mean someone is not in potential harms way, due to your buddy or you getting your buddy to shut his mouth.

    I don't agree that we need to act like 'mice' and be polite to someone who's a threat. In fact, some people will "feed" on your reaction and see you as a person that they can take advantage of and a potential victim.

    Guns, are not there to resolve feuds, arguments, debates, confrontations, etc. ... that's NOT what they are for. They are there to protect ourselves from an attack or threat on our lives. You didn't list any that I think fell into that category.

    .
    That's called back-stabbing where I live.... and not highly respected by the bosses either. I know I"m not there to solve all of my employees issues, or to put up with those types of games either. If I had someone doing that, I would probably be looking for a means to get rid of them.
    +1 perfectly stated for the real world environment.

    IMO, way to many feel they need their guns to get through most situations involving some jerk, or potential threat. What it boils down to is a simple fact IMO; are you willing to yield to someone pressing their will on you or not. Whether it's a robbery or a just a disagreement, you have to decide on the fly what's the best response, and having the mindset to defend yourself in any situation is what self defense is all about. Deciding on what method of response is your task when this stuff presents itself. I'll agree with the mindset to avoid the confrontation if at all possible, but just like this gentleman stated; it doesn't always work out like it should. Some idiots aren't satisfied with the avoidance, they have something to prove and you for what ever reason are their target.

    Carrying a firearm elevates us to one of the most dangerous living things on the planet; that said, it doesn't mean we need to use it as our only means of defense. It also doesn't mean we need to take all the guff that's dealt out by the planet idiots. Just cause you choose to stand your ground doesn't mean you're aiming to shoot someone, it simply means you're standing your ground end of story. Some folks here seem to need everything laid out and worded perfectly to get the jest of what's being said. Personally I think they're just being argumentative and need to feel like they are above all this. These folks seem to enjoy reading into every post and looking for points to attack. pretty goofy IMO, it is what it is; someone's opinion and that's it. All sides have valid points and not one single opinion works for every situation. The smart guy/lady adjust to the problems on the fly and still maintains control. Some food for thought; Just cause some might lose their head and do something stupid doesn't mean everyone else will too.

    In closing I'll offer up this analogy. If America operated under the philosophy along the lines of what the OP's message sends, I doubt we'd be where we are today, well maybe we're perceived a little weaker as of today, but I think my point is still valid. America is considered the foremost superpower for a reason; "Peace through strength" and IMO, that transcends down to the common man but on a much smaller scale. If anyone needs that defined further, I'll point you to a link and you can read about it until your hearts content.

    *PEACE*


    And I agree, great thread BTW....
    Last edited by gottabkiddin; December 1st, 2010 at 08:50 AM.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." – Thomas Jefferson

  8. #38
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Things would have to be pretty doggone crazy for me to pull either of my pistols. Robbery, Home invasion, or other clear threat to human life are the only situations that I can imagine. It is always best to retreat and try to remove yourself from any other type of confrontation.

    You definitely cannot come across as being the aggressor, not unless you want to get into trouble with the law.

    I also always carry a Taser C2 with me, to give me a far less lethal option.

    Here is my carry battery. I generally carry some combination of at least two of these weapons:



  9. #39
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    +1 Lance.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.

  10. #40
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    OP : to me , it sounds like you constantly use others to protect yourself or resolve issues for you. They 'escort the two out".... doesn't mean someone is not in potential harms way, due to your buddy or you getting your buddy to shut his mouth.

    When there is an opportunity to fight via proxy, you should avail yourself of that. I'll let the bar manager and his bartenders go in potential harm's way. I may not use the tactic "constantly" as you imply, but by properly leveraging the police, courts, management, and homeowners associations, you can save yourself a lot of headaches as well as risk. These people are paid to have those confrontations - not me. I simply let them do their job, and then there's no need for me to get involved in a risky situation. As I said, you Internet Tough Guys may see that as cowardice. I see it as a prudent tactic to keep me and my family out of potentially confrontational situations. If you want to weigh in and argue with your neighbors, coworkers, bar patrons, or others to prove your manliness, have at it.

    I don't agree that we need to act like 'mice' and be polite to someone who's a threat. In fact, some people will "feed" on your reaction and see you as a person that they can take advantage of and a potential victim.

    I don't recall where I used the concept of acting like a mouse. I simply explained how you can avoid potetenial confrontations by using surrogates. If you prefer the in-your-face method, you will likely find more potential need to carry a firearm.

    Guns, are not there to resolve feuds, arguments, debates, confrontations, etc. ... that's NOT what they are for. They are there to protect ourselves from an attack or threat on our lives. You didn't list any that I think fell into that category.

    Agreed. That's why I posted this thread.
    .
    That's called back-stabbing where I live.... and not highly respected by the bosses either. I know I"m not there to solve all of my employees issues, or to put up with those types of games either. If I had someone doing that, I would probably be looking for a means to get rid of them.
    Who said anything about backstabbing? I like how you characterize using the chain-of-command as "backstabbing". If you have to "look for the means to get rid of someone", you don't have any mojo at work, anyway. I can simply fire the person. It seems to me that "looking for the means to get rid of" someone is the ultimate backstabbing.

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    My dad told me that kids fight to fight and establish pecking order, it all depends on who you want pecking you. But when you grow up , you fight only to play for keeps.

    A man has to make these choices in accordance with his beliefs and value system, his convictions of wrong and right measure that which will limit his choices in the matter.

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    My dad told me that kids fight to fight and establish pecking order, it all depends on who you want pecking you. But when you grow up , you fight only to play for keeps.

    A man has to make these choices in accordance with his beliefs and value system, his convictions of wrong and right measure that which will limit his choices in the matter.
    +1. You speak words of both wisdom and knowledge with the ability to discern the difference.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    My dad told me that kids fight to fight and establish pecking order, it all depends on who you want pecking you. But when you grow up , you fight only to play for keeps.

    A man has to make these choices in accordance with his beliefs and value system, his convictions of wrong and right measure that which will limit his choices in the matter.
    Best said...this is what I was getting to...Thx Glockman
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  14. #44
    Ex Member Array Glocksin's Avatar
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    You have made one of the greatest posts i have seen in a long time,with one exception.
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    My buddy asked why I didn't come to his rescue.
    Im not sure how close you were to this person.If he was just a friends friend,someone who you only see twice a year,thats fine with not helping.But what do you value more,your friends life or others? Bar fights rarely come to the point of prosecution,its just a matter of being able to drive home.I value my friends more than my own self.I doubt we would have lost anyway.

  15. #45
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glocksin View Post
    You have made one of the greatest posts i have seen in a long time,with one exception.
    Im not sure how close you were to this person.If he was just a friends friend,someone who you only see twice a year,thats fine with not helping.But what do you value more,your friends life or others? Bar fights rarely come to the point of prosecution,its just a matter of being able to drive home.I value my friends more than my own self.I doubt we would have lost anyway.
    My friend was a good friend, but I am not taking a risk because he shot off his bazoo and escalated a minor disagreement into a potential physical confrontation. We still stay in touch, but I no longer will pop out to a bar with him.

    I take it%2

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