Deciding when to stand and fight
This is a discussion on Deciding when to stand and fight within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Madmac,
I don't usually post things like this but from your posts it sounds like you have never had to deal with a serious potenally ...
December 1st, 2010 02:00 PM
I don't usually post things like this but from your posts it sounds like you have never had to deal with a serious potenally violent situation. You remind me of my Quaker son in law.
Using your ideas I would be dead or a cripple. We walk when we can and we stand and fight when forced. Show a sign of weakness to an agressor and he will eat you up. Parts of the world are not all nice places where you can smile and leave or call a "proxy".
Sorry if this offends you.
December 1st, 2010 04:07 PM
Offend me? Why would what you stated offend me? If I was offended by words from an anonymous poster on a chat board, I would certainly not be carrying a handgun on me, as I wouldn't have the emotional maturity to deal with the possible consequences.
Originally Posted by BkCo1
I am retired military (although I know you wouldn't consider the USAF a "true" branch of the military), and I have travelled extensively while in uniform and many times since. My passport is loaded with entry/exit stamps. I have, fortunately, not had many potentially violent situations, nor have I personnally suffered a violent assault. I never served combat duty. However, I did gave an example of a personal situation in a bar that was about to turn violent, and how I decided to handle it with my money rather than with my fists.
This thread wasn't directed to our servicemembers fighting the Taliban, or working in the jungles of South America. I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that most posters here come to discuss concealed carry in the sense of an average citizen in the United States concerned with protecting themselves and their family. I wasn't trying to make an all-inclusive case of why one would never need to defend themselves. I never stated that one should never stand up and fight. In fact, in my OP, I acknowledged that very fact. However, I will posit that avoiding and defusing potentially violent situations is a skill at least as important as knowing how to draw and fire a concealed sidearm.
In nearly every SD scenario I can imagine for using my concealed carry weapon (here in the US as an "average concealed carrier"), I cannot think of one where I would have needed to "project strength" to avoid getting "eaten up", as you put it. If I need it, I will already have been attacked or threatened with grave bodily harm. Those are the legal definitions. Where is it that you believe you have to project strength to avoid an assault? My wife is a small-frame woman who also carries on occasion. How should change herself to not show a sign of weakness? A mugger, rapist, or attacker would see a smaller woman, and would have already made the decision. [She is prudent about how she travels and has good SA.]
I am now middle aged and certainly don't present the same picture of vim and vigor I did when I was in my twenties. Were I to have challenged those blokes in the bar, I would have been guilty of escalating a conflict. I suppose I could sit at the bar and puff out my chest and show 'em my medals. However, it was so much easier to use a few dollars to defuse the situation than to use fists and possibly weapons.
I would like to add that I was able to get out of a scrape in mainland China once using another proxy technique.
No one is saying you should walk around like a sad sack and tee yourself up to be a victim. I am saying it is a lot safer and cheaper to avoid a violent situation than to participate in one. I also see a lot of Gecko45 types who want to get all puffed up and offended with other people, or who try to prove how manly they are to strangers.. They cause most (if not all) of their own problems.
Last edited by MadMac; December 1st, 2010 at 05:46 PM.
December 1st, 2010 04:18 PM
Mad Mac, I understand your point, and it's worthy of consideration by any sensible person. We all have " hoe our own row" in the garden of life , and reap what we produce from the seeds that we sow. Sometimes pestilence and weather hamper our efforts too.
December 1st, 2010 05:58 PM
This reminds me of Transformers 1.
Bros before Hos man,put your friends first.
December 1st, 2010 08:24 PM
I will fight when it carries the best chance of survival for me or my family. I have never been in this situation.
I think the big danger to concealed carry is the tough guy mentality knowing that you carry an iron fist with you. I had an "opportunity" where I could have used my iron fist in self defense, as described by state law, but it would have been nothing short of legal murder. Since men have the natural desire to be the big tough guy, it's probably wise to avoid people, events, or places that regularly see that behavior.
Crime should be outlawed.
December 2nd, 2010 12:04 AM
Interesting, as it seems your two paragraphs contradict each other. More details may help.
Originally Posted by narcberry
December 2nd, 2010 12:18 AM
If you would stand by and let your friend get beat down by a cpl of guys (his fault or not) you are not a good friend.
He was motioning for us to come bail him out. Yes, he was dumb enough to think I was going to risk a beat-down because of his mouth.
Nothing begins, and nothing ends, That is not paid with moan; For we are born in others pain And perish in our own.
December 2nd, 2010 01:17 AM
"Cornered with no other choice" or "startled with no time for any other reaction" are the phrases to look for in a defense. "Taking a stand" sounds too much like a showdown in a gunfight (even if that is what you were doing!)
Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.
December 2nd, 2010 02:00 AM
i dont think a freinds stupidity is worth it when you can get others to deal whith it
Originally Posted by pierced456
December 2nd, 2010 03:36 AM
I have a cousin I used to be very close with. Big, strong, overly confident, handsome. He always invited trouble. If there was someone acting tough in a bar or in the neighborhood sure as helll he'd find some way to tick them off and get in a fight. I'd intervene only to keep them from inflicting too much damage on each other. Greater likelihood my cousin was the instigator/aggressor anyway. Why would I help him out? Other than to keep there from being serious harm.
So far it's been rare but easy for me to walk away or run and hide. I only had myself to worry about vhowever, if there are others, especially my wife or sons, I will interject myself into the middle with my firearm as last choice. If they were in the process of actually hurting them I would shoot without hesitation.
"I wish I would have done the hard things when they were easier to do."
December 2nd, 2010 05:28 AM
Well I hope that I act the same way when armed as when I am unarmed and my attitude does not change. There are many that feel being armed gives them false courage, for the lack of a better word, and their attitude and judgement does change. Many times they will look for or place themselves in a bad place or situation relying on the false protection of a firearm or even worse will not back down from a situation because they are armed.
Remember the phrase "Just because you own a guitar does not make you a musician" it fits here well. Just because you carry a gun does not make you a gunfighter. Many people in society are not intimidated by the presence or threat of a firearm from the average person and that can lead to problems.
If I can avoid a conflict then I will. By conflict I am not talking about a criminal act against myself or others, but in everyday life there is nothing wrong with calling the manager, notifying LE or by using coworkers or the bosses to solve a problem. You can't fight everyone there is always someone out there bigger and badder than you are. You better have some good people and conversation skills to assist you when you need it. Again I am not talking about a criminal or any situation where the aggressor cannot or will not be talked out of their action.
As far as defending a friend it would depend on the situation. If he is attacked without cause yes will be right there with him. If he gets in a fight because he ran his mouth or did something stupid and he could not talk his way out of it I am not going to get involved just because he is my friend. I will not allow him to seriously injured or pummeled on by three on one but he if he starts the problem he must be able to deal with it. If he or others feel that this makes me a bad friend so be it.
Many, Many years ago a field training officer gave me a piece of advice that I still use to this day "Treat everyone, not matter who they are, as a lady or gentleman until they show you different, but when they show you different, you thump and you thump hard not stopping until you have either changed their mind or they are in cuffs, or both". Just an opinion
"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013
December 2nd, 2010 08:46 AM
My best friend growing up was like a brother to me. He stayed at my house half the time and went on vacations with my family. He was a loudmouth smart alleck and got me into more fights than I care to recall. There were several occasions where I tried my best to get him to shut up and he wouldn't. He'd get into a fight and if he deserved it I'd let him take enough of a whoopin without getting hurt then I'd stop it. Ironically, he and I would end up in a fight half the time (I'd just tackle him and not let him up as I was much larger than him). One night at the mall in our 20s, he and a guy were about to get into it. The guy was a pretty bad dude and I told him he would have to whoop me first. I also added that my friend deserved a butt whoopin, but I'd be the one giving it to him. We had our scuffle, and when it was over, I proceeded to whoop my buddies butt too (not in a manner to hurt him, just embarass him). He did take a punch at my head and I lowered my head a bit and he hit the top of my head breaking his hand. Although we live in different states, we still keep in touch and get together when I go back home. He's not quite as bad as he used to be...something about having kids has settled us both down quite a bit. Fighting in our teens and 20s was a common occurance as we were into some less than honorable stuff back then. Now, it's a different story. There comes a time in a man's life when he stops busting knuckles and starts busting caps. As a husband, father, professional, and community leader...I'm there.
Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.
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