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Local establishment refusing to acknowledge ccw permit.

11K views 136 replies 63 participants last post by  Hotbrass 
#1 ·
So i was bowling last night with about 10 friends,and i have a fixed blade with about a 7" blade.Somebody needed to borrow a knife,so i let them have mine.The owner came up and plainly said "You cant have that thing in here." There are no signs outside prohibiting firearms or anything else of the like,so i explain to him.I go to get my permit out and he suggests i put it in my truck,or leave.

I was ccing that night as almost everyone with me is anti-carry.

So the question is,if your carry gun was seen and you were asked to leave,even though there is no sign prohibiting it,would you comply and get lectured by some anti-carry friends,or stand your ground on the basis of your right to carry and the fact that no sign is present preventing you from doing so?
 
#101 ·
Oldvet,
I believe that the person or group that made the definition "designed for offense or defense" is the same
person or group that decided what an asault wepon is.... LOL
 
#105 ·
Whether a CCW sign or not, in my state, a owner of a private property or business still has the leeway to prohibit me from carrying my gun on his/her property. It's just the way it is right now. Again, another reason why I do not open-carry. They do not know I am packing, the better.
 
#128 ·
So you conceal activity that the property owner wouldn't approve if he/she was aware? Nice. Nothing like trashing some one else's rights while exercising your own, and bad mouthing open carriers while rationalizing it.
 
#106 ·
I would leave and not patronize that establishment again, but I would not allow anyone to lecture me. I'm a grown man who has made a conscience decision that is no ones business other than my own.
 
#108 ·
I don't believe that any business or other property owner should have the ability to decide whether I have my legally owned and carried weapon on my person. Whether it is carried open or concealed, so long as it remains holstered (or sheathed in this case).

That being said, to the OP, you made a critical error in removing that blade from it's sheath, Mr. Dundee. It's the same for me to remove my pistol and lay it on the table. It's no danger to anyone, but it would rightfully set everyone's alarms off. Once you became an unstable element, it was predictable that he would ask you to leave. Yet that's not what he did. Beyond being reasonable, by your own description of events he asked you to store the weapon in your car and allow you to return. He had the right to ask you to leave at that point and not allow you back in.

Not to mention the sanitary aspects. A blade that long has a sheath, I take it. If you do anything with it like I do with my knife, that sheath is probably filled with bacteria, and you're cutting pizza you're sharing with someone else? Using it to cut your own food is one thing, but yuck
:dead::haha:
 
#109 ·
I don't believe that any business or other property owner should have the ability to decide whether I have my legally owned and carried weapon on my person. Whether it is carried open or concealed, so long as it remains holstered (or sheathed in this case).
I don't believe you should have the ability to ask me to leave your home just because I'm drunk and made a pass at your wife either, because I'm me!
 
#110 ·
If you made a pass at my girlfriend, it would just prove that you have good taste :)

In seriousness though, a business open to the public isn't quite the same as one's home. I can refuse you entry to my home based on our differing political beliefs, religious beliefs, or even your skin color. As a proprietor of a business, I don't have the same leeway.

On the other hand, the reason the OP and the business management's conflict was due to a behavior more than his legal right to posses the weapon in question. If he had been asked to leave because the knife was sheathed on his belt, I might give more consideration to his position, but if I was the business owner, I would have probably kicked him out myself. . . like my example of setting a pistol on the table.
 
#111 ·
Actually it is about the same. As a private business owner, I have the absolute right to admit who I want. I own the business. You may want to check out the concept of ownership. No shirt, no shoes, no service. If I think you're a nuisance, sorry sir, you'll have to leave. For me to allow concealed weapons in my business is a courtesy to those who have a ccw permit. But I can just as easily refuse to let them inside. Ever see the sign, "We have the right to refuse service to anyone!"

Just because I am open to the public does not mean I lose my rights of private ownership. Just because the state grants you the privilege in the form of a ccw license does not authorize you to come into my establishment if I don't want you there. And you can't do jack about it. I can on the other hand have you arrested. Or, physically throw you out myself, which would be much more fun.

Whether it's the business I own, or my house which I own, I have the right to say NO. And have legal recourse on my side. You on the other hand are merely a trespasser. And in some states can be shot.

You do have some rights in this case. You have the right to go somewhere else and not patronize my business.
 
#112 ·
Actually it is about the same. As a private business owner, I have the absolute right to admit who I want. I own the business. You may want to check out the concept of ownership. No shirt, no shoes, no service. If I think you're a nuisance, sorry sir, you'll have to leave. For me to allow concealed weapons in my business is a courtesy to those who have a ccw permit. But I can just as easily refuse to let them inside. Ever see the sign, "We have the right to refuse service to anyone!"

Just because I am open to the public does not mean I lose my rights of private ownership. Just because the state grants you the privilege in the form of a ccw license does not authorize you to come into my establishment if I don't want you there. And you can't do jack about it. I can on the other hand have you arrested. Or, physically throw you out myself, which would be much more fun.

Whether it's the business I own, or my house which I own, I have the right to say NO.
I don't know about West Central Missouri, but in WA state where I live, a no weapons policy or sign has no legal standing. ONLY if you identify that I'm carrying and ask me to leave is there a legal precedent. In that case, if I leave everything is done. We're both irritated at each other, and probably have bad days. If I refuse to leave, I'm trespassing. It doesn't matter WHY you asked me to leave, the law doesn't care if it's for my concealed or openly carried weapon, or because I'm taller than you. You then have the right to call local law enforcement to have me removed, or even have me arrested if you chose to press charges.

And have legal recourse on my side. You on the other hand is merely a trespasser. And in some states can be shot.
If I don't leave when you ask me to, sure. Then I'm trespassing. . . though even in Texas, i don' think you'd be legally justified in shooting a person for simple trespass in a store.

Actually, by pointing out "No shirt, no shoes, no service. If I think you're a nuisance, sorry sir, you'll have to leave." you kinda make my point. Both of them are legitimate reasons to remove someone that have nothing to do with firearms. . . the first is health related, at least in WA the health department has your back, and the second is entirely subjective.
 
#113 ·
I would like to point out I'm not advocating violating the law. . . if your sign has legal standing in your state, I'm not going to push it.

I'm also not an OCer, usually. So when I ignore a sign, which I rarely encounter, it's not likely to cause a conflict. And even if I were OCing, I'm not an advertising carrier, I wear my black pistol with a black tshirt, no tacticool pants, no Springfield, Glock, or Smith and Wesson shirt, etc. We've gotten a bit off topic, I still maintain that the reason that the OP had his conflict was because of his behavior, not the fact that he was armed with a significant investment in sharpened steel.
 
#114 ·
Gents the simple fact remains the OP was in the bowling alley with the knife. Obviously the management had no problems with him having it (I am still not sure if it was carried concealed or open) but either way he had been in the building for a bit long enough to order food and bowl.
By his own admission he carries it to scare away the bad guys. There was no problem with the knife until he drew the knife from the sheath and displayed it in public then and only then did the management have an issue. If he was carrying this under the premise of a Georgia CCW permit would this not be brandishing?

I completely agree with livewire his behavior caused the problem not the fact that he was wearing a knife. He wanted attention and he got it.
 
#116 ·
I have noticed after reading thru all of the responses that most here have admonished the OP for his behavior in the situation, and rightly so.
I have noticed with alarming regularity, a number of post by the OP and a couple of others that borderline juvenile thought patterns.

This type of thinking, and activity is absolutlely irresponsible and completely inconsistant with rational, mature thought process of those who responsibly carry for SD purposes, and is a danger to our hard fought battles of advancing the cause of responsible concealed carry.

It is totally stupid to carry 7 knives and handgun around. There is no way, real or imagined, to think this is normal.
I further opine that to suggest one carry in such a manner as to give the visual image of "don't attack me, I'm armed" absolutely stupid, and embarrassing.

Folks, this is an example of the greatest threat present today to our cause, not Brady Inc .
 
#118 ·
I can see having a primary and backup weapon. I can even see a backup to the backup. I can see having some kind of blade in addition to a gun to use as a tool, like I do. But how are you going to deploy seven separate blades?

You have the right to self defense. You have the right to carry a weapon. I believe nobody should be able to tell you otherwise as long as you're not violating the law, even if you don't agree with said law.

You do not have the right to be a pretentious exit orifice for fecal matter about it, it just makes the rest of us look bad, and doesn't help you. Unless of course you convince anyone around you that you're too crazy to mess with, but then you have no friends.


Actually, OP, how would you expect to be able to deploy all those knives against an armed attacker? I'm curious to know.
 
#117 ·
Agreed. It wasn't the knife at issue, it was the behavior that created it and the fact that it works against all who choose to legally carry a weapon for SD.
 
#119 ·
Guys one of the reasons I am both doubting, questioning and generally treating the OP so badly is that if you research some of his other posts there is not a doubt in my mind he is either a 14 years old and staying up past his bedtime or he is the biggest dumb*** I have ever encountered.

Some of his other posts and responses include that he has physically disarmed multiple armed attackers and I guess does so on a regular basis because of the bad neighborhood he lives in but will not tell other members who live in the same city where it is, has lulled the BG into a false sense of security by feigning compliance then when least suspected shot the BG in the back, and again routinely draws against armed attackers and defeats them among other accomplishments. I have attempted to poke, question, egg on and outright challenged and insulted him to give details or explain his actions but to no avail. I do apologize to the mods for pushing the limits of forum rules and procedures.

I never really knew what a troll was or who Gecko45 is/was but I am assuming this is him.
 
#121 · (Edited)
I wonder if he knows Ninjutsu and can climb walls :-D

Oh, wait. . . he was in the Marine Core, right? RIGHT?


If I have a garden and grow food to provide for my family in times of need, no one can come in and demand that I give them or sell them a percentage of my garden proceeds. The same goes if I own a bowling alley and I don't want weapons on my property, concealed or otherwise. I have that right as an owner. And it doesn't matter if I post a sign or not.
There is still a difference in reality and legal precedent between your private home and your publicly accessible place of business. If you run a private club with membership, sure, but if you run a Bark'n-Mart then your rights as a property owner are different. If I run a LiveWire's Steakhouse, I can't prevent access to the same people that I would entering my home.

However, as the sign says in many privately owned establishments, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone!"
This is true. But what would happen to you if you refused service to every black person that tried to come into Bark'n-Mart? Or if I put up a sign on LiveWire's Steakhouse that said "No Gays or Muslims allowed"? I wouldn't have my steakhouse very long, and you wouldn't have your store either. And both of us would probably be in jail.

I know that legal precedent and court opinion doesn't agree with me, but I think that prohibiting legally carried firearms should be under the same protection.
 
#120 ·
In a perfect world, there should be no places where a lawful person should not be allowed to carry their gun. Not a post office, not a school, not a government building or business. That's my personal belief. However, with that said, there is the right of ownership. And the right of ownership gives the owner the right to make rules for the property he owns, whether it's a business open to the public or a private residence. That right must be respected, otherwise anyone can come and do anything they want, or take whatever they want.

Another person who neither owns the property, nor has any vested interest in the property, nor any liability for what happens on the property should not have the right, and does not have the right to make demands of the owner of said property.

If I have a garden and grow food to provide for my family in times of need, no one can come in and demand that I give them or sell them a percentage of my garden proceeds. The same goes if I own a bowling alley and I don't want weapons on my property, concealed or otherwise. I have that right as an owner. And it doesn't matter if I post a sign or not.

If a person enters my establishment carrying a weapon which is concealed and nobody sees it, obviously I, as the owner have no way of knowing there is a weapon in my establishment and must rely on the fact that if there is a concealed weapon, it will remain concealed. However, when that item becomes visible to others, as the owner, I have the absolute right to ask the person to remove it or leave. And, according to the law, I'm not violating anyone's rights by doing so because I have the rights to govern what goes on on my personally owned property.

Bottom line, I believe everyone has the right to carry a gun, but they do not have the right to carry it on property where the owner demands they don't.

And for the record, if I owned a business open to the public, I would certainly allow lawful concealed carry and would likely post a sign which says as much.

I also allow lawful concealed carry in my home. I have no problem with my friends or people I invite into my home to bring their guns and knives if they so wish.

However, as the sign says in many privately owned establishments, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone!"
 
#124 ·
Well, signs have no legal bearing in Missouri as well. Carrying a concealed weapon into an establishment which has posted a no firearms sign is not a criminal act!

However, if you are asked to leave and refuse, you can be fined and charged with trespassing. Subsequent refusals to leave will result in increased fines and suspension of your ccw permit.

So while violating a posted establishment is not a crime, you still can not demand to remain on the premises because you are a licensed ccw permit holder. I'm not sure of the exact law in Washington state because I don't live there, but I'm sure that it is similar in the fact that you can be charged with trespassing for refusing to leave.

To my knowledge there is no state in which a ccw holder can thumb their nose at a business owner and say, "I have a ccw license and I'm staying and there's nothing you can do about it." Why? Because the business owner has certain rights which allows him to control, to an extent, who comes into his property or place of business.
 
#125 ·
Yes, this is true here too. Any business representative that asks you to leave is protected by trespass law. You must leave when asked or you can be ejected by local LE. If the owner so wishes, he can also press charges for criminal trespass.

Of course, this has nothing to do with CPL licenses, it has to do with trespass law. It doesn't matter WHY you are asked to leave, and the business owner isn't even required to explain himself.
 
#126 ·
Also, just so you know. I'm merely enjoying the spirited debate. I'm not saying you're wrong, or that I'm in disagreement with all you are saying. I just enjoy good debate. I'm not lashing out or attacking you on a personal level. I hope you see that. :smile:
 
#127 ·
Also, just so you know. I'm merely enjoying the spirited debate. I'm not saying you're wrong, or that I'm in disagreement with all you are saying. I just enjoy good debate. I'm not lashing out at you on a personal level.
I've taken none of your comments in any negative way. Besides, at this point we're really agreeing with each other anyway, lol.

I just wish we as a society could have debates like this on other topics in the political and social arena. I think in general 'gun people' are more open to the opinions of others than any other segment of society. Maybe it has to do with how much we condition ourselves for deescalation.
 
#129 ·
Having owned a retail business, the solution is simple... A posted sign "We reserve the right to refuse service to any one for any reason," was recommended to me by my business' atty. BTW, service means just being in the store as well. If you ask a patron to leave and they do not... it is only trespass... but that's enough for me.

Else, I agree 100% with Glockman10mm on his last post...
I have noticed after reading thru all of the responses that most here have admonished the OP for his behavior in the situation, and rightly so.
I have noticed with alarming regularity, a number of post by the OP and a couple of others that borderline juvenile thought patterns.

This type of thinking, and activity is absolutlely irresponsible and completely inconsistant with rational, mature thought process of those who responsibly carry for SD purposes, and is a danger to our hard fought battles of advancing the cause of responsible concealed carry.

It is totally stupid to carry 7 knives and handgun around. There is no way, real or imagined, to think this is normal.
I further opine that to suggest one carry in such a manner as to give the visual image of "don't attack me, I'm armed" absolutely stupid, and embarrassing.

Folks, this is an example of the greatest threat present today to our cause, not Brady Inc .
 
#130 ·
I agree that he may have had a lapse in judgment. My fear is when others decide that we should have a law to restrict what we don't like. Sometimes we go from "A person shouldn't do that" to "A person shouldn't be allowed to do that" to quickly.

Michael
 
#136 ·
Most malls don't post big signs because they want our business and don't want to send our dollars packing. With the rules posted in fine print on some obscure wall that is a CYA for them.
Exactly so. I asked my banker why his no guns sign is so hard to see as you come in. He just smiled and said he was required to put up a sign by the corporate headquarters.

Michael
 
#137 ·
Glockskin, I carry a CS Voyager "5", and a Trapper, usually one with 2" blade max that I will let someone use. The big boy is for me. You were asking for it. Get a second smaller pocket knife, then next time if someone asks for a knife hand them one that no one will take a second look at.
 
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