Massad Ayoob

This is a discussion on Massad Ayoob within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Watched a couple of videos that Massad Ayoob has made, and then someone put them on the internet in 10 minute bits... very informative, even ...

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Thread: Massad Ayoob

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array bunker's Avatar
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    Massad Ayoob

    Watched a couple of videos that Massad Ayoob has made, and then someone put them on the internet in 10 minute bits... very informative, even though video looks like it was from the 1980's. What do you think of him and his teachings? He seems like he knows his stuff. I see he offers a class for $800, and it is a five day class. I have never taken a class, except through Rocherster Personal Safety in order to apply for my nys ccw. What do you think of instructional classes? anyone gone to some especially good ones? thanks for the input. Bunker

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  3. #2
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    He is definitely knowledgeable and the real deal, although you should keep in mind that much of what he teaches was formulated back in a day when there were no castle doctrine laws, no "stand your ground" laws, etc like we have today. But for states without such provisions, his advice still stands.

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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Well known...highly respected, seasoned, knowledgeable. Have some of his books and some videos. The only "formal training" I've ever had, the US government and taxpayers provided. I've never truly felt the urge to shake a US president's hand nor be in his presence. Ayoob, I might very well travel a distance to do either. The 1980's? Nothing's really different now than it was then when you think about it. The message conveyed then is still good now. IMO...rather read the books or articles myself. Timeless. If I had the money to take one of his classes, I would. Then again, if I had the money, a picture of me shaking hands with him, and an autographed poster would be well worth it.

    you should keep in mind that much of what he teaches was formulated back in a day when there were no castle doctrine laws, no "stand your ground" laws, etc like we have today. But for states without such provisions, his advice still stands.
    Not much of that really matters IMO. Like I said...timeless. Ayoob has instilled more of the basics than laws over time. Simply put....how best to take down the threat, and what works best based on first hand experience.

  5. #4
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    Ayoob is the preeminent authority on the judicious use of lethal force. To date, there hasn't been a single attorney or judge who has taken his 40 hour LFI class who won't readily admit they learned more about lethal force in his class than they did at law school.

    His credentials are not only impeccable, but are envied in the world of lethal force instructors. Many of our forum members have taken his classes and will attest to his work and expertise as well as his world class shooting skills.

    He is also the developer of the "Stress Fire" shooting technique which applies to handguns, shotguns and rifles and has written 3 books on the subject of stress fire alone.

    He sits or has sat on many boards of directors for law enforcement instructors association and firearms instructors associations.

    To paraphrase the old E.F. Hutton commercials... "When Ayoob speaks, people listen."

    He is also a member of this forum.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    Member Array mandalitten's Avatar
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    He is definitely a knowledgeable person and has been an expert witness in gun related cases. I read his book "In the gravest extreme". Good book, but very outdated when it comes to equipment. If you plan on carrying, I recommend reading it since it gives you a primer on legal issues you should take into account before/during/after a confrontation.
    On the other side, there are some people that don't like him because of some of his viewpoints. One that comes to mind is that he recommend NOT reloading your self defense ammo. His argument is that if you have to use it, the prosecution will argue that you loaded it specifically to injure or kill people. I don't remember where I read it, but I believe it was his article, and he admitted that there was no case law on that issue. It was basically his professional opinion, and not based on facts.

  7. #6
    Senior Member Array bunker's Avatar
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    after watching his videos online, i feel very uneducated on the whole ccw thing. Think at least i will purchase some of his books. Think i am getting an e-reader Nook for Xmas... maybe i can get some of his books online. thanks. bunker

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    Senior Member Array Gary Slider's Avatar
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    If you are going to carry a firearm for self defense you can take no better training that LFI-I. Mindset is the #1 priority. That 3 pounds of mush between your ears is the most powerful weapon you can carry. He will teach you how to use it.
    Stay Safe,
    Gary Slider

    Co-Owner Handgunlaw.us

    Member Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network

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    Not sure if his books are available for Nook or Kindle and the like. They are really specialty books.

    However you can get all of his books and DVDs at the Police Bookshelf

    Many of his books are however available at Amazon.

    I've read probably 10 or 12 of his books, not to mention countless magazine articles and have about 6 or 7 of his videos.

    Three books I would definitely recommend for anyone new to self defense are In The Gravest Extreme; The Truth About Self Protection; and The Ayoob Files.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  10. #9
    Senior Member Array bunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Not sure if his books are available for Nook or Kindle and the like. They are really specialty books.

    However you can get all of his books and DVDs at the Police Bookshelf

    Many of his books are however available at Amazon.


    I've read probably 10 or 12 of his books, not to mention countless magazine articles and have about 6 or 7 of his videos.

    Three books I would definitely recommend for anyone new to self defense are In The Gravest Extreme; The Truth About Self Protection; and The Ayoob Files.
    Great, sounds like that is a good start. Thanks. Bunker

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul34 View Post
    He is definitely knowledgeable and the real deal, although you should keep in mind that much of what he teaches was formulated back in a day when there were no castle doctrine laws, no "stand your ground" laws, etc like we have today. But for states without such provisions, his advice still stands.
    And for states with those provisions, it still works too.

    People tend to think of Castle laws and "Stand your ground" laws as the solution to everything.

    Well, they aren't.

    Avoidance and deescalation are pretty dam good, even for those of you with sympathetic legislatures.

    As to Ayoob, I think he's on the money. (Not just because he published something I wrote... http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...ing-aftermath/ )

    Here's my AAR of his shooting class.

    AAR Massad Ayoob Group (MAG-20R) Live fire Class

    Where: Wallingford, CT (Blue Trails Range)

    Instructors: Defense Associates, LLC (Frank Cornwall, Lead Instructor)

    Gear: Glock 26 with trijcon sights, blade tec IWB holster, various ammo (some garbage, some not) Home made mag holders made from cheap holsters cut down to just hold mags upright in my pants pockets.

    What worked: The gun & holster. No problems with it. Mag holders worked great. They are what I use every day, and I didn’t want to change from them.

    What didn’t: Ultramax ammo. Crap. Garbage. 4 FTF’s. 1 shot that felt like it was double charged and filled with black powder. I got a good deal on it, and while I’m not complaining…garbage…

    Class overview:
    The weather sucked. It was hotter than hell the first day, the second day was humid and overcast.

    It was the weather I was expecting ever since I started firearm training. If it’s not hotter than hell, humid & colder than heck I wouldn’t know what to do with myself during a shooting class.

    I am sun-burnt, and I came down with an upper respiratory infection during the class.

    By my standards, we are 100/100 so far, and I was enjoying myself tremendously!

    The class started with lectures and a safety video from Massad Ayoob. A lot of the lecture in the class was done on video in order to insure the information was conveyed in the time allotted without interruptions from questions (which time was allocated for after the video) and to insure that should questions arise about what the students were taught in the class in court, the training could be show exactly as it was executed to a judge or jury.

    Being a lawyer (please, I prefer the term ‘vermin’…) I thought that was very nice.
    I will be focusing this review on the shooting portion of the class, as I didn’t sign up for classroom portion of the class.

    The class was conducted in strings of 6. 6 shots per magazine, 3 magazines per drill. This was done to allow the revolver shooters (we had one in class) to keep up, as well as to increase our need to reload and get those mechanics locked in.
    We started with draw stroke and progressed to shooting from the draw at 4 yards, then moved back to 7 and 15. Day 1 ended with shooting a portion of the class test to be held at the end of the class.

    The second day began with more lecture/video, then onto the range for dry drills to practice trigger press. We then progressed to firing drills at 4, 7 yards, single handed and two handed. Then we went to 10 yards and did transitions to crouching, and from crouching to kneeling on one knee, then on 2 knees.

    The range part of the class culminated with a practice run for the qualifier at the end, then we had a lecture from Massad Ayoob in person.

    He showed us how to relax, and then shot the qualifier for us to model.

    Then, we shot the qualifier.
    I am not happy. I pulled 2 shots and ended up with a 294/300. Unsatisfactory.
    Suicide was briefly considered…but I’m not going to jack up someone’s insurance rates because I pulled 2 shots. It wouldn’t be polite.

    The judicious use of deadly force, and the Q&A session afterward was excellent. It was worth the money for the whole class, and the next time Mas comes to CT or I can get to one of his classes, I am doing the classroom portion, maybe exclusively. It was that good.

    I would have liked the round count increased; however, it was a lethal force management class, not a pure shooting class.

    What I didn’t like:

    The drawstroke mechanics. This class used a draw stroke which establishes a grip on the weapon, raises the weapon out of the holster, then brings it to meet the support hand which sits flat on the stomach at mid abdomen level, then the hands meet bringing the weapon in both hands at low ready, and then raises the entire structure up to the eye line to shoot.

    I was taught a different draw stroke earlier, the weapon is grasped in a fighting grip with the thumb flagged high, then raised on a direct vertical to the shoulder. When the thumb hits the pectoral and makes the index, the shoulder is bunched and the weapon would be pointed at a 45 degree down. The off hand would be high, center chest, and the gun would be brought to the centerline, with your eye catching the sights at the earliest possible time, then punching the weapon out to firing position.

    I will try the new drawstroke in force on force in the future – I just don’t prefer it right now.

    That said…it worked just fine, and had I been taught it first, I may have liked it more. Right now, I don’t.

    I wish we had spent more time working the mechanics of the draw stroke only, and had a better explanation of the kinesthesiology of the drawstroke taught.

    I think it’s one of the most important part of learning to use a handgun, and I’d have sacrificed round count for more drilling on the drawstroke.

    Overall: Thumbs Up.
    Last edited by HotGuns; December 15th, 2010 at 11:37 PM. Reason: Unacceptable language

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    I have Mr. Ayoob's "Concealed Carry" book and have also watched a few of his videos and read some of his articles. I think one YouTube comment I left sums my opinion up- "When it comes to proper handling of handguns, Mr. Ayoob is a walking Library of Congress. Incredibly knowledgeable."
    Four Rugers, three SIG Sauers; my SP101 3-1/16" .357 is shown in my avatar. I like reliability.

  13. #12
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    You can do a lot worse than Mas!
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

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    I have shaken the hand of both Bush's and have an autographed thank you letter from the second Bush for a day of service that I provided him in 2006. I am waiting to get in line to do one of Mas 40 series classes.
    Praise the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle --- Psalm 144
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    Blue Thunder

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    Senior Member Array HK Dan's Avatar
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    He's pretty damned funny when you slide enough Rolling Rock into him, and when you get him started on HKs and designer clothes. He knows his stuff and I'd listen to him. Take MAG20!
    Last edited by HotGuns; December 15th, 2010 at 11:30 PM. Reason: language workaround
    "What does Marcellus Wallace LOOK like?"

  16. #15
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    I took my first professional training from Ayoob in 1992 (back in CT), when I made a conscious decision to be armed in defense of self and loved ones. Four 10-hour days of LFI-1, and by the end of Day 3 I was starting to have doubts about the wisdom of that decision, because of all the ugly stuff that could happen if I ever had to shoot another human in self defense. But just one day later, by the time we got through all the autopsy slides, I knew I was mentally and emotionally prepared, and I was in fact resolved not to surrender my life to vicious human predators.

    The new MAG-20 classes are structured differently than the LFI-1, with one for Classroom and one for Live Fire, or MAG-40 combining the two. Mas is an engaging instructor and the material is presented with memorable anecdotes. I can't say enough good things about how good a foundation these courses provide the conscientious armed civilian.

    [Note to Mitchell - Messrs. Cornwall & Nalband were the range instructors even back then... a couple of pretty intense guys!]
    Smitty
    NRA Endowment Member

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