Something to consider when ignoring no gun signs

Something to consider when ignoring no gun signs

This is a discussion on Something to consider when ignoring no gun signs within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In Michigan the law states that you can carry anywhere you can "Legally" be. I know there has been discussion before about ignoring the gun ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Something to consider when ignoring no gun signs

    In Michigan the law states that you can carry anywhere you can "Legally" be.

    I know there has been discussion before about ignoring the gun buster signs. Technically they can ask you to leave, and if you don't it's considered trespass.

    However take a look at this lawyers opinion. This is a link to a FAQ from MCRGO (Michigan Coalition of Responsible Gun Owners)

    http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/d_ccwfaq.asp


    From the article with important information in bold:
    If you disregard a sign or a verbal or written notice that guns are not allowed in a particular location, your legal status is that of trespasser. One of the results is that you are no longer covered by the "Stand Your Ground" law that went into effect late last year. The Stand Your Ground rule allows individuals to use proportional force in self defense without having to retreat, so long as they are in a place where they have a legal right to be. Even a CPL holder who is exempt from the Pistol Free Zones loses this legal protection while carrying in violation of a posted notice that guns are not allowed on the premises.
    So IF you have to defend yourself in a no guns zone the "Stand Your Ground" rule may not apply. This is something to consider if you decide to ignore a gun buster sign.


  2. #2
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    That is just one lawyers opinion. You need to prove in a court of law that I actually saw your signs and was aware that it was a no firearm zone.... that being said if it was a self defense situation, I would counter sue THE PROPERTY OWNER for not protecting me by allowing illegal weapons on premises thus allowing me to have my life become imperiled.

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    New Member Array Guthumba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    That is just one lawyers opinion. You need to prove in a court of law that I actually saw your signs and was aware that it was a no firearm zone.... that being said if it was a self defense situation, I would counter sue THE PROPERTY OWNER for not protecting me by allowing illegal weapons on premises thus allowing me to have my life become imperiled.
    This is true, however, you also must consider that, while you are trying to prove or disprove one position or another, you can pretty much bank on that fact that you will be doing so after having been arrested and placed in a correctional facility while awaiting a bond hearing.

    My wife, being an Assistant State Attorney General, often reminds me of this when I find myself inclinded to ignore "No Concealed Weapons" signs that do not meet the established legal requirements.

    Although you would likely have your charges eventually dropped, if you choose to carry in an area of this nature and there is an incident, you must be prepared to find yourself in a legal struggle. Unfortunately, you won't know how intense of a struggle this will be until you are already engaged in it...

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    Being right isn't cheap. Ask any lawyer.

  5. #5
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    If I am in immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily injury I have the right to employ deadly force to defend myself. I won't be trying to claim the stand my ground law as protection. I will be asserting an affirmative defense for my lethal force in that the threat was both immediate, and unavoidable. That is the only situation in which I would use lethal force to begin with. It is reserved for only immediate and otherwise unavoidable threats.

    As always, I try to avoid deadly force encounters and if one can be avoided, I'm looking to avoid it. I'm getting out of there if I can. But if I happen to be on the premises of a location in which I did not see a particular sign when I entered, if the threat is immediate and unavoidable, I'm defending myself and not too worried about any signs I didn't see.
    -Bark'n
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Array deafdave3's Avatar
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    Are ya'll serious? If one is in a facility that has a gun-buster sign, and he has to use his gun in self-defense, in the ensuring commotion, nobody is gonna notice him sneak away and remove the gun-buster sign!!! :)
    A CCW is like a parachute; if you need one, and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Really interesting! Is Stand Your Ground the only law supporting the use of a gun in self-defense tho? Would trespassing also negate a basic self-defense defense? (I'm being very general because know there are different laws that pertain to sd and I imagine the differ from state to state too.)
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by deafdave3 View Post
    Are ya'll serious? If one is in a facility that has a gun-buster sign, and he has to use his gun in self-defense, in the ensuring commotion, nobody is gonna notice him sneak away and remove the gun-buster sign!!! :)
    Some might consider that as tampering with evidence. Besides, someone always sees!

    Don't rely on the fact that you thought no one saw something you did. It'll bite you in the butt.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array deafdave3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Some might consider that as tampering with evidence. Besides, someone always sees! Don't rely on the fact that you thought no one saw something you did. It'll bite you in the butt.
    Ah, well. It was worth a shot.
    A CCW is like a parachute; if you need one, and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again.

  11. #11
    Member Array MoResident's Avatar
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    I'm with Bark'n on this one.
    Better to be judged by 12 instead of carried by 6.
    If I am in immediate and unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily injury to myself or family, I will defend myself.
    Standing my ground has NOTHING to do with it.
    "Proud To Have Been Banned by Huff PO"

  12. #12
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    "That is just one lawyers opinion. You need to prove in a court of law that I actually saw your signs and was aware that it was a no firearm zone.... that being said if it was a self defense situation, I would counter sue THE PROPERTY OWNER for not protecting me by allowing illegal weapons on premises thus allowing me to have my life become imperiled. "

    AZChevy with all due respect You are kidding right?

    You are going to stand in front of a judge and jury and tell them that you are lawful and prudent individual, who after receiving proper training and licensing and assuming the tremendous responsibility that comes with carrying a firearm, then knowingly carried said firearm into a location that was posted which is one of the main topics covered, stressed and re-stressed in CCW classes and, then became involved in a lethal confrontation and have the nerve to use the defense.......

    "Ooops I did not see the sign"?

    Then to top it all off you are going to attempt to sue the property owner for legally posting his own place of business with a no weapons sign, which he is following the rule of law by doing if he so chooses, which you chose to violate and now you want to sue him for you violating the law and lying about it.

    I'm sorry but there is no way I can even come close to supporting these actions, perjuring yourself in court and then suing someone because you violated the law. I truly think there are some serious issues with character and judgment if that is how you truly feel.
    Last edited by tacman605; December 19th, 2010 at 03:27 AM. Reason: Being nice do not want to cause problems
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Some business, looking for a "Gun Buster/No Guns Allowed" sign is like a game of "Where's Waldo?", presuming the state does not have required specs for the sign (Color, size, print, location...I.E. Texas)

    Any time you get involved in a shooting, you are in for legal woes, except maybe in Texas, at night on your own property (open season, no size restrictions or bag limit).
    Sticks

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Some business, looking for a "Gun Buster/No Guns Allowed" sign is like a game of "Where's Waldo?"
    So true. One of our local cinemas is posted. The signs are printed on a clear background in white font about 8 point in size and the gun in the slash circle could be covered by a quarter. To top it off, they are on every other door at ankle height. Because of state law, they have the weight of law even though they appear to be designed and placed to be nearly invisible.

    While I don't like posting a place, if you are going to allow it, Texas has the right idea - spell out how to do it in the law.
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  15. #15
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Another interesting sidebar to the gun sign debate in SC and probably other states is the fact that you are not allowed to CC in an establishment that serves liquor--ie: a restaurant. If there is one scenario that I would definitely CC it is an evening meal with my wife at a restaurant and then the night walk back to my parked car-something I cannot do. Even if I did, per the sign comments, if I were to shoot someone because of an incident, eventually it would come out that I was coming from a restaurant and then the question is why did I have the CC contrary to the law--now I am in trouble. In any event, got to remember there are not just legal consequences to disregarding the law, which may subside because you were in danger and were able to defend yourself, but civil consequences, which might leave you broke.

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