Talk with Pastor

This is a discussion on Talk with Pastor within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; For many of us, shops who posts a "no guns" sign will get boycotted, and their gun-friendly competition will see increased business. Is it unreasonable ...

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Thread: Talk with Pastor

  1. #16
    Member Array Cornelius's Avatar
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    For many of us, shops who posts a "no guns" sign will get boycotted, and their gun-friendly competition will see increased business. Is it unreasonable to apply the same policy towards churches, synagogues, and mosques? If not, then what makes them special? Obviously, this argument pertains to states where armed carry is not legal in places of worship and only applies towards a welcome member of the congregation; an armed neo-nazi in a synagogue is definitely trespassing.

    Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied. (Luke 22:35-38, NIV)
    Jesus not only condoned His followers being armed in His presence, He encouraged it. Why would a pastor put him/herself above Christ?
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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    I carry (Sr. Pastor). The assistant pastor carries. Part-time teaching pastor hunts, but doesn't carry. Half the men in our men's group shoot, and a few of them carry. This is a GOOD church!

    In fact, I may start a God and Gun Club.
    Last edited by miklcolt45; December 20th, 2010 at 09:19 PM. Reason: add final sentence
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

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  4. #18
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    My Pastor asked me to be armed at church in case "something" happened.
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    We have a security team that totes. Since it is still illegal in Arkansas to tote in church, we are all cops of some sort and it is legal for us to do so.
    My Pastor totes. He can do that because there is a loop hole that allows him to carry in his place of buisness.
    The rest are certified officers and its not an issue we can pretty much tote anywhere.

    Many of the Pastors here tote.

    That is true in many of the larger churches, but I assure you that at many if not most rural churches there are attendees packing, regardless of what state law says. It's like the "old" Clinton policy of "don't ask don't tell"
    Kholster/Glock 17/Rugar SR9c/Bersa 380CC/Ruger LCR/SW 624/ SW 629
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    I don't even call it violence when it's in self defense; I call it intelligence
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  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    I carry (Sr. Pastor). The assistant pastor carries. Part-time teaching pastor hunts, but doesn't carry. Half the men in our men's group shoot, and a few of them carry. This is a GOOD church!

    In fact, I may start a God and Gun Club.
    Greetings, Michael...how's life been for you?
    Merry Christmas and certainly have a Happy New Year.

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  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    Well as a senior pastor, you can check my signature and guess where I stand. What kind of response you receive frankly will depend upon where you are in the country, the denomination of church you attend, and the background of your pastor. More "baptistic"? Probably more gun friendly. More pentecostal? Likely less so. In the NE or West Coast? Probably more likely to find resistance than throughout the south or Midwest. Here in AZ church carry is legal without permission; for that matter, Constitutional Carry says anyone who can own a handgun and is 21 or older can conceal it (other than in an establishment that serves alcohol on the premises...that requires CCW).

    Most of the pastors I know are fine with people carrying. I know I am, and we regularly have 4 or 5 armed men in a congregation of 170 or so including me. The congregation knows I am a firearms enthusiast, and regularly take anyone in church who wants to learn out shooting or hunting. We do ask that those who are armed let us know, just so we can include them in planning should anything happen in our midst. Plus, if you want to carry I want you as part of our informal security plan!

    My advice to anyone who wants to carry in church is to talk with their leadership, neither demanding nor hat in hand. Go and give honest information, then live for Christ and not for people.

    Also, for the record, I do NOT believe that we can treat our church like a place of business. I agree that I will not patronize a business with a "no guns allowed" sign, but the consumer mentality is not what God wants for Christians. We are a community not a business or a dispenser of products. If that is our attitude we have stepped FAR away from the model of church that I read about in Scripture. Sure, if I were new in town and looking for a place to call home it would be an issue. Otherwise, hopping from church to church because of what the church offers you is not the way to go. Instead, be the change agent to balance your congregation and bring healthy change where it is needed. Dive in instead of abandoning ship and make a difference where you are.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
    Christianity and Self Defense from a Biblical Perspective

  8. #22
    Member Array loboleather's Avatar
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    About 15 years ago the Presbyterian Church USA (PCUSA) issued a call to all members to remove "assault weapons" and handguns from their homes. I offered to take mine out to church every Sunday morning.

    I was probably the least popular serving elder in that congregation! But, since I was also president of the not-for-profit corporation, and signed the pastor's paychecks, this issue never grew any legs. When I was responding to the burglar alarm at all hours of the night nobody seemed to mind that I was armed. When I was forced to eject a guy who came into the church to harass his ex-wife nobody seemed to mind.

    Not long afterward, PCUSA made a point of demanding that US flags not be displayed in sanctuaries (much too "divisive", don't you know), and pursued several other actively anti-American policies on a national basis.

    PCUSA worked very hard, and eventually was rewarded with my resignation from membership and office.
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  9. #23
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    tn resident here. I told my pastor that I got my hcp. he said great he always preferred people on his side to be the ones with guns.

    he noted hands up was ok(no gun needed) but hands out(like holding a gun) was not ok and to fire away.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    I did bring the subject up on church trip. We were going on a men's retreat which included some skeet shooting and target practice along with paintball and of course some workshops and sermons. One of the church elders was also present and we were discussing guns and CPL in general. The church elder stated that he was "ALWAYS" armed.
    The pastor had made a comment that Michigan "got it right" in regards to legal carry. He is originally from Canada, and just became a US citizen. I asked the pastor if he would have a problem with me carrying in church and his response was "I would welcome it".

    I mean, I don't want to disapoint him now, do I?

  11. #25
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    Washington State is another where you do not have to ask permission, so I didn't. I carry every Sunday, even when singing with the choir or playing bass with the praise team. I doubt that anyone has noticed.

    While I do OC some of the time, church is one place that I CC.
    Last edited by ak56; December 22nd, 2010 at 12:23 PM. Reason: punctu'ation error

  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array Gideon's Avatar
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    Well said MinisterMalic! I'm a former Pastor; sad long story but I carried the whole time. In Missouri you're required to get permission. The bible requires us to submit to authority unless that authority would run contrary to the Word. I believe this means folks in Missouris need to seek the permission of leadership.

    We also need to be very very sensitive about how we carry in church and who we tell. Althought we have liberty in Christ, we should be willing to set aside some of those liberties if they might cause a brother to stumble. Likewise, if what we're doing could hinder a lost person in coming to Christ then we ought to be not only willing, but eager to give it up. That's the whole point of the teachings on eating meat sacrificed to idols in the Bible.

    I now teach an adult Sunday school class at the church I attend. No one knows I carry except the Pastor. I'll never ever divulge that to anyone else unless there are very very special circumstances and even then I'll think twice. I'm very careful about how I carry. For example, I won't "snap" a mag onto my belt, it has to be "threaded" on because one time a mag pouch came loose and spilled out a mag (not in church thankfully!).

    I've had a snap pouch that holds one speed strip of .38's come undone and dump a speed strip off my belt so I don't use those.

    I have a Kahr MK9 that is perfect for church carry because of it's very low profile.

    In all the years I did pastor, I never had a single person ask permission but would have granted it if they were a member of the congregation I knew and trusted. I'd also take issue with someone who was demanding or brand new or even not a member yet unless they were new to the area and just being honest and up front.

    I believe churches are going to become more and more vulnerable to violence.

    God Bless
    Gideon

  13. #27
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    Distinguished Member Array mkh's Avatar
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    In Florida you don't have to ask so I didn't when I first started carrying. I know of about 20 people at church that have their license though I don't know if they all carry.

    I now head up the church security team and the team is armed (CC) so I don't have any problems with being armed. I only know of one couple that doesn't think security is necessary but everyone else that finds out has all welcomed it.

    We keep it low key but guys walking around with a Secret Service style earpiece does cause people to draw conclusion.

  14. #28
    Member Array redbeardsong's Avatar
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    1776Forever, Georgia law prohibits carry in church with no exceptions. The "place of business" exemption does not apply here, so pastors are not even exempt, nor can they grant permission to carry. GeorgiaCarry has filed suit, claiming that the law is unconstitutional. Currently, though, it's still law. You can read the documents here:
    http://www.georgiacarry.org/cms/cate...hip-carry-ban/

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Aren't we supposed to be clinging to our guns and religion? Presumably at the same time, right? :)

  16. #30
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    Here in NY we can carry in church without permission. My pastor (United Methodist) knows I shoot at a range but has never asked if I carry. I do sing in the choir which gives me a great view of the church and congregation. Maybe I'm crazy but I do think about what I would if something happened or someone came in and caused an issue. Because I sit up front facing the congregation I look for possible places I would go if I had to use my gun. I look at angles that would not put innocent in harm, including my family.
    There are times I do sit in the congregation and when I know that is going to happen I think carefully about what I wear to conceal my Glock 27. When standing to sing a hymn there is someone right behind you and "printing" is something I don't want to do.
    Now if I only could carry in the school where I work.

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