? for police on site and others
This is a discussion on ? for police on site and others within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Had been home for a few minutes. Dogs out in a fenced yard and gate closed and latched on front porch. Getting a drink of ...
July 11th, 2006 11:00 PM
? for police on site and others
Had been home for a few minutes. Dogs out in a fenced yard and gate closed and latched on front porch. Getting a drink of water and a vehicle pulls up in front of my house. Guy gets out clean cut but has cammo pants on t-shirt and vest. Dogs are going nuts. I still have my sidearm on. I see he has a pistol on his side somewhat concealed by the vest.
My door is open so he sees me. Ask if I know someone. I say no. Has a paper in his hand. He starts towards the gate. Tell him to stay right where he is and not to open the gate with my dogs there.
His hand moves down towards his pistol a tad. I tell him he makes one more move for his sidearm I will drop him. I had already drew mine and had it in hand hidden by the door.
He ask for the person again. I ask who he is. He says a process server. Shows no I.D. and never tries to. Tell him to haul ass he does I call and let the police know. Said they would check on it.
Now if he was who he said should he have been better at letting me know who he was ?
Also he seemed to have a real I got a gun so I am a big man attitude.
If he was a server and had gone for his sidearm a tad more would I have been in the right drawing and possible haveing to shoot him ?
July 11th, 2006 11:06 PM
Seems like he was foolish to reach for his gun and not better ID himself. Problem is serving papers is a sneaky job sometimes. Depending on your states law you may or may not have been legally justified in shooting.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
July 11th, 2006 11:14 PM
I think you did well; any a-hole crook could claim to be a process server, heck they often claim to be cops. I say no ID, get the he** out of here, let the cops sort it out. (And even if ID were shown, I don't know if I would have let him in; still would have seemed pretty iffy).
July 11th, 2006 11:15 PM
A proces server can be just about anyone. He could have been a Private Investigator, a lawyer's assitant, or anyone. They have no arrest authority what so ever. Their only job is to deliver court or other legal papers. They are not required to have any specific ID. As far as if he had pulled his weapon I believe you would have been legal to shoot him. Where he was he had no legal reason to draw his weapon. I am not a lawyer or play one on TV. I have been a Private Investigator, Armed and Unarmed Security Officer. I am currently a Dept. of the Army Police Officer. If that clown had done that with me, he would have gotten the same response. You did the right thing, especially calling the local police. They can check him out fairly quickly. The main thing is that you are safe and the police are on it.
July 11th, 2006 11:23 PM
It comes a time in your life when you run across someone you should have never @#$$% with. Allow me to introduce myself!
July 11th, 2006 11:47 PM
Depending on your state's laws, your actions might be fine or not. I can't speak for your state, so all I can offer is a bit of "light" (info) on the issue of process servers.
I am a Constable in MA. We serve process and make arrests and are sworn LE, but do not do the same function as police do. Now to muddy the waters, anyone in MA (and many other states) can print up some business cards and declare themselves a "process server". In MA they have NO legal authority, no arrest authority and are only doing a job like a mailman.
Many/most process servers act professionally, and there will always be some yahoos like any profession.
WRT IDs! Process servers and most Constables are very unlikely to have any sort of gov't issued ID. Some Constables will wear or display a badge and others won't. There are no hard and fast rules. [Personally I have been fighting with the town that appointed me to issue me an official ID and all that I've received in the past 7 years is lip service, still no ID. Also, if I had the ID, HR218 applies to me, but no ID means no HR218!]
Personally I wear a badge when I serve papers or make an arrest, this is because if someone assaults me and no badge is present, I can't charge them with A&B on a LEO, so the badge gives me that plus indicates (but doesn't prove) that I am indeed a LE official. Otherwise I am dressed in civvies and carrying concealed. Also in MA, anyone who tries to imped a Constable from serving papers or making an arrest can be arrested and charged criminally, again not so if the person is merely a process server.
I would only go for the gun if attacked by an animal or human (and am in fear of being badly injured or killed), but would try to back out without doing so if at all possible. I'm not looking for a gunfight or to kill an animal/pet.
Another thing, I (almost) never will enter a house of someone that I'm serving papers on. I have only done so a few times when invited in (and these were odd circumstances), but most of the time I have refused to enter the house even if they ask me to come in. It is not wise for us to enter the home of another, best to conduct business strictly at the door.
July 12th, 2006 12:05 AM
To some more of your incident.
- If I came upon a house with dogs (that appeared to be unfriendly at my presence) outside (in the fenced in yard), I'd wait for you to appear and ask you to come to the gate . . . I would not open it.
- I would ask you if you were <name here> and explain that I am a Constable/process server and have some legal papers for <name here>.
- If you tell me "no", I'd ask if you knew the person or if they lived there. I'd ask your name and record it to show that I did "due diligence" in trying to serve the papers, thank you and I'd be on my way.
I've been given "bad addresses" numerous times by clients. If the person residing there knew the person, I try to get some idea where and when they may have moved and report it back to the client. I always apologize for the inconvenience and go on my way. Our job is not to be confrontational, just to deliver the papers. No tricks, no threats, just show common courtesy and it's worked for me.
July 12th, 2006 06:02 AM
My wife is a former LEO. In this area a lot of the officers due process serving for a little quick extra money. Did you by chance get the lic plate number of his car? That would have been a big help in figuring out what happened.
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
July 12th, 2006 06:38 AM
I feel in a jury opinion NO. I feel a jury would feel he was too far to be a direct threat to you. Remember there was a front yard gate, a front yard and the front house door you could of closed between you.
July 12th, 2006 07:11 AM
Yes I got his plate and gave it to the police department.
From my front door to my gate is about 20 feet.
Also you mess with my animals I mess with you. We have a large drug and B&E problem in our area. A few years ago I had a bounty on me by some of the local drug dealers that are now in jail due to me and a few others running there bussiness off. The state police were great doing that time. Gave me a lot of help and leeway.
One of the reasons that my and my neighbors have never really been botherd with is most folks know we have multiple large animals in our homes all the time.
What really put me off with this guy was the cammies, pistol sloppily hid so as people could see it as he wanted and the attitude.
This is a mountain community and certain things are done and certain things are not done. Depends on if you are a decent person or a thug and the situations are handled in certain ways.
July 12th, 2006 12:01 PM
You did perfectly, IMHO. You even demonstrated some restraint and you should be commended for it.
Let's examine HIS conduct a minute.
He was going to come into your yard, through a closed gate, without permission (supposedly to serve a lawsuit on someone who didn't live there).
If the dogs do their job, he tries to shoot them.
Notice I said "tries" to shoot them.
I doubt he would have been able to shoot the dogs, to be honest. They would have been all over him like cheap camo pants. He might have gotten a shot off. He might even have killed one of the dogs.
But big guard dogs, at least where I am from, are NOT usually one-shot stops (12 ga. slug = exception), and they sure don't stop if there are two dogs and only one gets shot. If he entered that gate, I don't think he'd have time to shoot them both, multiple times, before they reached him.
They'd probably rip the guy up pretty bad, I'm thinking.
But let's say he enters your yard, through the gate, uninvited and (against odds) manages to kill your dogs with his pistol. Then he starts up the walk/stairs to your house.
At that point, I think you are MORE than within your rights to ventilate him like a piece of moldy Swiss Cheese, Process Server or not.
July 12th, 2006 12:28 PM
While I find this attitude perfectly reasonable, the law may not. I don't know about your state, but I do know that there are states where someone can shoot your dog dead right in front of you and you would NOT be considered justified in shooting at them to try and prevent it. In some states ONLY a lethal threat to a human being can justify a lethal response.
Originally Posted by Mos42
Bottom line is that we all need to be familiar with the laws in the state (or states) where we carry. What is "right" is not always what is legal.
July 12th, 2006 12:47 PM
In my area if a gate is latched but not locked it is still considerd a locked gate. If you open it and enter the yard you are tresspassing. Also have a gate on my deck to the yard.
Hate when I get home and have found that someone has climbed over both my gates (padlocked when I leave home and in the evening before bed) and left a magazine or some sales junk on my door.
In my area any threat to livestock or if the animal is in your yard and when fenced if you do any harm you are at fault. One great thing about liveing in the country. Now if the animal is off your property then you can do what needs to be done if it poses a threat.
Some of the new folks from the city moveing up here freak when they walk out in the morning and find cattle or horses standing in there yards.
July 12th, 2006 01:18 PM
Same here in NC. You can only use deadly force to protect the life of a human.
Originally Posted by denverd0n
July 12th, 2006 03:48 PM
If someone shoots at my dog, that is in my gate, I would consider that a threat to my life because they are basically shooting in my direction (even if it's downward).
As for what happened, I think that you did well. Paper server or not, they are not allowed to trespass just because they don't believe you. If they move toward the gate to open it, I would consider that a threat to my life as well as I am behind the gate and as far as I am concerned they are coming through the gate, armed, after me.
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