DC: 14 dead in 13 days! - Page 3

DC: 14 dead in 13 days!

This is a discussion on DC: 14 dead in 13 days! within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; DC is a cesspool. I can't recall where I saw the stat, but you are more likely to be shot and killed in DC, than ...

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Thread: DC: 14 dead in 13 days!

  1. #31
    Member Array 18DAI's Avatar
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    DC is a cesspool. I can't recall where I saw the stat, but you are more likely to be shot and killed in DC, than in Baghdad Iraq. They should take a page out of Floridas book, and institute CCW, and "Stand your ground" law. My 0.02, Regards 18DAI.


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom Doc
    It is not politically correct to say this, but I've never been one to give a rat's rear end about political correctness.

    I do not believe for one moment that the officials in D.C. are simply too stupid to understand the folly of their gun control policies. In other words, they know damn well that it only empowers criminals. This is by intent. These people (some 80-90% black) have been fuming for years over the inability of poor blacks to succeed in a "racist white" society (their words, not mine); therefore they see all this as payback against whitey. They will never say this in public but I believe it is essentially true.
    Who is "they" and when did those people share with you all of this and their plans?

    Myself I was born and raised in DC (NE), am a second generation native, my dad is DC police retired, and for a couple years after college (mid 90's) I lived in the heart of Georgetown at 39th street across from the Georgetown U. Nursing College.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array swiftyjuan's Avatar
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    You know, California may not be that bad...

  4. #34
    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq
    Who is "they" and when did those people share with you all of this and their plans?

    Myself I was born and raised in DC (NE), am a second generation native, my dad is DC police retired, and for a couple years after college (mid 90's) I lived in the heart of Georgetown at 39th street across from the Georgetown U. Nursing College.

    - Janq
    "They" being D.C. officials.

    So tell me, since you were born and raised there, what is your take on why "they" appear to believe everyone is safer when no law-abiding person can own a gun, or carry one around? I bet you would be willing to say, as I would, that if D.C. had CCW the violent crime rate would go way down. So, what's up with that?

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom Doc
    "They" being D.C. officials.

    So tell me, since you were born and raised there, what is your take on why "they" appear to believe everyone is safer when no law-abiding person can own a gun, or carry one around? I bet you would be willing to say, as I would, that if D.C. had CCW the violent crime rate would go way down. So, what's up with that?
    Most of the folks I know of are split toward this.
    Half of them pissed and overtired about guns in the community having lost parents, children and numerous relatives to gun fire albeit an end result not a cause.
    Meanwhile roughly the other half are all as I was cliving with and/or choosing to carry a firearm or defensive weapon of some sort or another for the simple reasn and reasoning that if you don't take care of self no one else including Chief Ramsey will, within the so called nick of time. Guns within the community is a ligthening rod as it is most everywhere else city or country.
    Folks on both sides of the coin though tend to have little faith in the police as they currently stand even as under Chief Ramsey times have been better than anyone can recall dating back to the times of Rayful Edmunds and the bad old days of the 80's which is when DC was the 'Murder Capitol'. It's been a long time since then as NJ and Gary, IN have long suprassed DC just as NYC is no longer the relative danger zone it used to be 20+ yrs. ago.
    As for CCW if DC had CCW I'd bet the crime rate would remain the same. Reason being the majority of crime if you look at the stats has been Black on Black, with of course notable exceptions as detailed in this thread, and of that the vast majority has been amongst and between folks who are involved in the crime scene either by choice of we'll call it profession or simply by where they live.
    Of course there are other gun related crimes ongoing in DC such as home invasions and such but if the imagined gun laws of DC were to be the same as neighboring VA, where I posses a resident CHP in addition to MA, then it's very likely the folks who are in need of a CHP the most as based on crime stats would not seek it out. There is no NRA presence nor firearm education presence in DC even as the headquarters is just over the bridge and up Rt. 66. I used to shoot there up to a couple years ago. Additionally the costs and hoops of fire required by folks to leap through to secure a VA CHP would be a limiter for many of those within the statistical primary DC crime victim group.

    As to 'they' being DC officials Mayor Williams base are the opposite of the position you stated prior and Ramsey doesn't pander that way either. In fact IMHO he's been pretty neutral through his tenure in so much as race is concerned. The as mentioned by Freedom Doc Eleanor H. Norton has been involved in DC politics fro the ground on up since my dads day and she is ver much toward the community and it's majority which in DC does happen to be Black although it wasn't always that way and likely at current rates will return to how it was in numbers prior to the so called 'white flight' toward the suburbs of the 60's. But thats a whole other subject.
    One might say assume or even imply that EHN panders to the as you noted "inability of poor blacks to succeed in a 'racist white' society" but even that would be much for EHN especially in todays modern day political scene amongst DC. But then maybe I missed a meeting or two toward the crumudgeon committee.

    The bottom line is that folks in DC Black, white and other are of the same mind as many other cities and states even those that do in fact have CCW laws on the books such as notable example CA including LA county and the town San Francisco, both of which actively deny applicants toward as much who are not connected. Some folks would love to see CCW laws going online in DC while others for reasons based in unreasonable and/or irrational fear if not complete firearm & CCW law ignorance are against that which they know little to nothing about. My wife for example is this way being from a small town in the sticks being uber leftist (I'm a centrist) and the polar opposite of D.C. even as when something goes bump in the night and doesn't sound right who do you think she calls on first? I'll give you a hint, the first three letters do not begin with '911' even as the person she depends on make use of the same tools they do; a sidearm, tac light and dog of size that just might bite.

    For the record I myself do CCW currently legally in VA & MA although for very many years whilst living & survinvg in DC and MD I did there also even as they both actively deny/disallow as much legally.
    Following the old saying I and many others would very much prefer to be judged by twelve, in DC court, than carried by six. If the unfortunate British gent had been of the same mind he too might be able to say the same although in his home country legal defense of self is as foreign a concept as it is here at the nations capitol.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    Janq,

    You raise some very good points, especially as to the lack of any "law abiding gun culture" existing in the inner city. This needs to be addressed in order to fix the problems there, and in today's political climate I don't see that happening. Equally, somehow the people there (some of them) seem to believe there is some sort of magic wand they can use to make guns just disappear, but that isn't going to happen either. Folks need to get rid of the notion that just one more gun law is all that is needed.

    The fundamental thing I see is this: Cops cannot protect everyone, and in terms of direct criminal attack it is very unlikely they will be there to protect ANYONE. So, who is responsible for your safety? You are!

    Surely the good people of DC know this, at some level.
    We have to start there.

  7. #37
    Ex Member Array one eyed fatman's Avatar
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    Republicans don't want guns in DC anymore than the Democrat's do. It could give new meaning to term limits.

  8. #38
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    I don't know much about Senator Allen.

    But what little I know, I like.

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    City Crime Rankings by Population Group (Top 10/Bottom 10)...DC is #13

    As described 'City Crime Rankings by Population Group (Top 10/Bottom 10)' Washington D.C. is #13, Springfield, MA being #19, with Gary, IN being #9, Baltimore, MD being #6 (and I whole heartedly agree with that), Richmond, VA at #5 (again agreed) and Camden, NJ as #1 which has had that position for atleast a decade or more now as I recall.

    The entire listing featuirng best and worst overall as well as breakouts based on population can be found at; http://www.morganquitno.com/cit06pop.htm#25

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #40
    Member Array Sonic Misfit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq
    As described 'City Crime Rankings by Population Group (Top 10/Bottom 10)' Washington D.C. is #13, Springfield, MA being #19, with Gary, IN being #9, Baltimore, MD being #6 (and I whole heartedly agree with that), Richmond, VA at #5 (again agreed) and Camden, NJ as #1 which has had that position for atleast a decade or more now as I recall.

    The entire listing featuirng best and worst overall as well as breakouts based on population can be found at; http://www.morganquitno.com/cit06pop.htm#25

    - Janq
    I am more than a little skeptical about the methodology used in the rankings. It appears that they are only using 6 categories: murder, rape, robbery, aggravated assult, burglary, and motor vehicle theft. There is no mention of the fact that many of the murder cases in some places are listed as manslaughter (especially if a juvenile is the perpetrator.) Also, some states have different degrees of burglary depending on whether a home was occupied at the time of the crime.

    Another problem I have is that they weighted the crimes equally. This means that if one state downgrades a burglary to "criminal tresspass" while another state keeps the burglary charge, then it would be weighted the same as a murder against the second state while it would not even be counted in the first state.

    Also, they talk about their "formula", which is conspicously missing from the write-up on their methodology. (I assume that they consider it a trade secret formula.)

    Does anyone have any more information on how they are actually treating this survey?

    After all, we all know what Mark Twain said about statistics

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Misfit
    I am more than a little skeptical about the methodology used in the rankings. It appears that they are only using 6 categories: murder, rape, robbery, aggravated assult, burglary, and motor vehicle theft. There is no mention of the fact that many of the murder cases in some places are listed as manslaughter (especially if a juvenile is the perpetrator.) Also, some states have different degrees of burglary depending on whether a home was occupied at the time of the crime.

    Another problem I have is that they weighted the crimes equally. This means that if one state downgrades a burglary to "criminal tresspass" while another state keeps the burglary charge, then it would be weighted the same as a murder against the second state while it would not even be counted in the first state.

    Also, they talk about their "formula", which is conspicously missing from the write-up on their methodology. (I assume that they consider it a trade secret formula.)

    Does anyone have any more information on how they are actually treating this survey?

    After all, we all know what Mark Twain said about statistics

    Agreed, people who are objective and have nothing to hide have no problem showing their data, procedures, assumptions and methodology (and formulae). If any of this is hidden, it should be IGNORED as partisan tripe.

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    SM,

    In my mind 'manslaughter' is a type of "murder" thus that would be filed under as much and counted. As for degrees of burglary yes thats true although I'm sure thats filed under "burglary" if not "robbery" and is consistent for all. The equal weighting makes sense for the reasons you point out. If one charge is listed as burlary and in another zone the exact same thing is assigned as robbery then giving equal weighting allows the numbers to resolve and catch up with each other without throwing off the final result as it is comparative zone to zone.
    as for their formula who knows what it might be but this listing in specific matches up with various other listings of similar and then there is always the FBI who does their own stats as based on their own collections from states and the results toward the specific towns I mentioned are pretty much the same +/-1 position. I can't speak for the whole listing as a whole just the top 20 worst cities in specific.

    The bottomline is that DC for notable example is not misclassified as 13 and should be #1 nor is Camden, NJ misclassified as #1 and should be #13 or even say #5. Likely depending on ones bent and preferred method of math all of the cities could be rejiggered by a position north or south but not likely in any amount signficant enough to really matter.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq
    SM,

    In my mind 'manslaughter' is a type of "murder" thus that would be filed under as much and counted. As for degrees of burglary yes thats true although I'm sure thats filed under "burglary" if not "robbery" and is consistent for all. The equal weighting makes sense for the reasons you point out. If one charge is listed as burlary and in another zone the exact same thing is assigned as robbery then giving equal weighting allows the numbers to resolve and catch up with each other without throwing off the final result as it is comparative zone to zone.
    as for their formula who knows what it might be but this listing in specific matches up with various other listings of similar and then there is always the FBI who does their own stats as based on their own collections from states and the results toward the specific towns I mentioned are pretty much the same +/-1 position. I can't speak for the whole listing as a whole just the top 20 worst cities in specific.

    The bottomline is that DC for notable example is not misclassified as 13 and should be #1 nor is Camden, NJ misclassified as #1 and should be #13 or even say #5. Likely depending on ones bent and preferred method of math all of the cities could be rejiggered by a position north or south but not likely in any amount signficant enough to really matter.

    - Janq

    The point is, without knowing the methods , assumptions, and formulae used, ANYTHING is possible. I have seen papers published by anti-gunners (not saying that is what we have here, but I would not be surprised) and they will bend things like crazy to get the results they want. Pro-gunners don't normally have to do that, as the real data pretty much tells the story. Our main problem is getting the real story out there to be heard, since the lamestream media won't.

  14. #44
    Member Array TBob's Avatar
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    I'm also skeptical of the numbers presented. I saw an analysis recently that showed that DC was over twice as dangerous as Iraq as far as violent deaths were concerned. I'm trying to chase down some DOJ statistics for a raw-data comparison of US cities' violent crime rates. Property crimes should not be included in the analysis since by definition the owner isn't present and cannot present an armed intervention.
    "To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them"
    - George Mason, American Statesman (1725-92)

  15. #45
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    If one would like to spend the time doing the long math one can go to the FBI and work it out via their own numbers as reported over the past decade...

    Uniform Crime Reports
    The Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program was conceived in 1929 by the International Association of Chiefs of Police to meet a need for reliable, uniform crime statistics for the nation. In 1930, the FBI was tasked with collecting, publishing, and archiving those statistics. Today, several annual statistical publications, such as the comprehensive Crime in the United States, are produced from data provided by nearly 17,000 law enforcement agencies across the United States.

    Crime in the United States
    Crime in the United States (CIUS) is an annual publication in which the FBI compiles volume and rate of crime offenses for the nation, the states, and individual agencies. This report also includes arrest, clearance, and law enforcement employee data.

    http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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