What A "No Weapons" Sign Really Mean To Criminals When A Business Posts One!!!

This is a discussion on What A "No Weapons" Sign Really Mean To Criminals When A Business Posts One!!! within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Depending on where you live, we have all seen the "Gun Buster" signs, no weapns allowed signs or just printed words or signs stating "no ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 26

Thread: What A "No Weapons" Sign Really Mean To Criminals When A Business Posts One!!!

  1. #1
    Member Array Beachbumcook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kansas City Metro
    Posts
    170

    What A "No Weapons" Sign Really Mean To Criminals When A Business Posts One!!!

    Depending on where you live, we have all seen the "Gun Buster" signs, no weapns allowed signs or just printed words or signs stating "no weapons allowed".

    As we all know, legal CCW permit holders are not the problem and crimminals and "bad guys" are... that's why they are called "crimminals" and "bad guys".... and they do not care about laws, statutes and your gun-buster signs.

    Below is a poster that I found on the internet that really is "tongue and cheek" what a business really means when they post such a silly sign to begin with.

    What I am trying to determine, is when I write to a business about reconsidering their policy of "posting of no weapons"... that they may actually be increasing their "liability" due to disarming the legal, law-abiding, government approved permit holders from protecting themselves and others from "criminals" and bad-guys"... and the poster/sign below is really the message that you are conveying to them!!!

    I may include this sign/poster in with my letter to illustrate how their "posted policy" could be used against them and how it could actually attract "bad guys" to target "law-abiding customers and citizens!!!

    You may be better off not to post anything and take "no sides" of this issue rather than post your "no weapons" policy and convey the message that is being made to the bad element within our society and that it could be used against you and your company if anyone were to be hurt by someone with a weapon.

    Businesses only understand one thing... loss of sales revenue and law suits. Now, there is nothing here for any of us to sue a company with, but the goal would be to make them "think" about their policy and read the sign/poster below and realize how their policy could be interpreted in the tongue and cheek way the poster below is written? Hey in front of a jury... it just may work to show this sign/poster???

    Springfield XDM 40cal
    Safariland Double Magazine Duty Pouch
    High Noon "Slide Guard" Holster - Leather (OWB)
    BladeTech "Eclipse" Holster - Kydex (OWB)
    Aker Reinforced Gun Belt (Leather & Polymer)
    Wilderness Tactical/Operator Belt (Kydex Reinforced)

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    new york
    Posts
    1,291
    Quote Originally Posted by Beachbumcook View Post
    ..........
    What I am trying to determine, is when I write to a business about reconsidering their policy of "posting of no weapons"... that they may actually be increasing their "liability" due to disarming the legal, law-abiding, government approved permit holders from protecting themselves and others from "criminals" and bad-guys"... and the poster/sign below is really the message that you are conveying to them!!!..............
    No one increases their liability one iota for not allowing CCW's into their store. That's like saying a store owner's fire liability increases by not providing air-packs to customers.

    Private property is private property.

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    3,407
    Where the sign does not carry the weight of law, it means the same to me if I need to do business there...Nothing.

    If it does carry the weight of law, then the more savvy BG may consider it a low risk target. I'm not a BG so it is hard to speculate.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  5. #4
    Distinguished Member Array kapnketel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Northern Kentucky
    Posts
    1,709
    I suspect the BG's do not think about it-from the looks of the ones they catch on the news, not too bright. I mean, hold up a bank? Do they really think they can get away with it? You an't fix stupid.
    I'd rather be lucky than good any day

    There's nothing that will change someone's moral outlook quicker than cash in large sums.

    Majority rule only works if you're also considering individual rights. Because you can't have five wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper.

  6. #5
    Member Array Beachbumcook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kansas City Metro
    Posts
    170
    In a court of law it is not always about right and wrong, but about what you can prove or the emotions one can get a jury to think about.

    I live in Kansas and we have the ability to earn and apply for a CCW permit. If granted, I can carry concealed to protect myself and others at anytime/anywhere.

    Now granted, a business can post a "no weapons" sign which is allowed and be perfectly legal and within their rights to do so. However, I now must give up my ability and right to carry a firearm to protect myself from others who may wish to do me harm... yet the business owner has not done anything to prevent or stop others (bad guys) from doing harm to me or others. Now, if we were in a court house or some place with "security" or metal detectors, then I reasonable belief that I am safe and that others do not have knives or guns on them.

    By posting a "gun buster" sign, the sign above is one way a "gun buster" sign can be interpreted and viewed to mean.... stretching the meaning yes, but by making fun of the sign it is making a point. If "people and businesses" that post "gun buster" signs really think that just a sign will stop criminals and guns from their businesses, then they must think that if we just post signs up about the 10 commandments and see if that doesn't stop crime and other "bad behavior".... it won't and never will!!!!!

    I contend that if I, or others, are injured in a place of business that has posted a "gun buster" sign I can assure you I and all those people and family members will use it to get a jury's sympathy that I and others may have been able to prevent or reduce the killing or injuries, but the business choose to prevent it and a resonable person would assume that they would then take the reasonable steps to protect me.

    Sometimes in the legal system and business, it is best (in this case) not to take a side on a issue rather than choose and have it "spun" and used against you. By the way, here in Kansas, we have a state Senator who is looking to enact or initiate just such legislation in order to assist the "pro-gun" lobby and get businesses to "think twice" about posting. This Senator wants city and County employees to be able to carry at work (which is banned) and have metal detectors installed... if not, allow them to carry at work if no one else can or will ensure their safety.
    Springfield XDM 40cal
    Safariland Double Magazine Duty Pouch
    High Noon "Slide Guard" Holster - Leather (OWB)
    BladeTech "Eclipse" Holster - Kydex (OWB)
    Aker Reinforced Gun Belt (Leather & Polymer)
    Wilderness Tactical/Operator Belt (Kydex Reinforced)

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array JoJoGunn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    2,874
    There are some serious doubts that criminals are that bright to recognize a sign that prohibits concealed carry into a business. They may briefly see the sign but it probably doesn't have any impact on weather or not they will perpetrate a crime at that establishment.

    Criminals just are not that smart, but there are some exceptions and they are few.
    "A Smith & Wesson always beats 4 aces!"

    The Man Prayer. "Im a man, I can change, if I have to.....I guess!" ~ Red Green

  8. #7
    Member Array Beachbumcook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kansas City Metro
    Posts
    170
    On the internet, I remember reading that the FBI or Secret Service did a study on where the most common violent "mass shootings" occur... and they are always at palces where weapons are prohibited.... why, people are known to be defenseless.

    As well, there were news stories highlighting this very issue as well:

    1) Malls (many have or were previously posted).

    2) High schools and college campuses.

    3) Post offices

    4) Places of emplyment

    I will have to Google search and find the article/presentation that was done.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315563,00.html

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/7876073/Gun-Free-Zones

    http://www.american-partisan.com/cols/brown/080800.htm
    Springfield XDM 40cal
    Safariland Double Magazine Duty Pouch
    High Noon "Slide Guard" Holster - Leather (OWB)
    BladeTech "Eclipse" Holster - Kydex (OWB)
    Aker Reinforced Gun Belt (Leather & Polymer)
    Wilderness Tactical/Operator Belt (Kydex Reinforced)

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    7,062
    Beachbumcook,

    I carry, you carry. We both have an "agenda" in that we believe in the right to carry, and choose to exercise that right. Not everyone does. I respect your courage in expressing your thoughts to the business owners that have posted No Weapons signs. I don't think they would suffer any liability as you suggest, but it may get them thinking, at any rate.

    The important thing is that, when you write to these business owners, you don't just give them cause to put your letter in the circular file because it was written by one of those "gun nuts that wants to rambo up and come in here with his AK strapped to his back."

    The fact of the matter is that both sides of this argument can find studies or news articles to defend their position.

    Back in the early 2000's, both the CDC and the NAS formed a joint task force to study the studies promulgated by both sides of the gun issue. While both of these institutions (the CDC and the NAS) could be considered anti-gun, their conclusions were that no laws led to a reduction in violent outcomes... that there was no direct correlation between gun laws banning certain weapons, etc. had no direct effect on violent crime. And also, that there was no correlation between laws making weapons access easier (like "shall issue") and the reduction of violent crime.

    In their own words:
    During 2000--2002, the Task Force on Community Preventive Services (the Task Force), an independent nonfederal task force, conducted a systematic review of scientific evidence regarding the effectiveness of firearms laws in preventing violence, including violent crimes, suicide, and unintentional injury. The following laws were evaluated: bans on specified firearms or ammunition, restrictions on firearm acquisition, waiting periods for firearm acquisition, firearm registration and licensing of firearm owners, "shall issue" concealed weapon carry laws, child access prevention laws, zero tolerance laws for firearms in schools, and combinations of firearms laws. The Task Force found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws or combinations of laws reviewed on violent outcomes. (Note that insufficient evidence to determine effectiveness should not be interpreted as evidence of ineffectiveness.) This report briefly describes how the reviews were conducted, summarizes the Task Force findings, and provides information regarding needs for future research.
    Source: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

    The important thing is that rather than try to prove them wrong, you just illustrate that you and your fellow carriers aren't wrong either.

    Your object is to "win hearts and minds." Bald facts will seldom do this, especially if the business owner is emotionally invested in his stance. You cannot "win" by presenting the exact opposite of what the anti is thinking. Your best bet is to give him something to think about, and gently steer him in your direction... without being forceful.

    "I understand your concern"
    "I respect your decision"
    "I agree with..." (find something in his stance that you can agree with)

    Then

    "I used to believe..., but then I found out...."
    "You're right about that, but did you know..."
    "I don't know about you, but I would..."
    "I'm sure you thought long and hard about...., and I did too. This is what changed my mind..."

    What you are choosing to do is not easy (in writing to these business owners). And, unlike both you and I in this instance, you need to be able to "grab" them in a lot fewer words.

    Good Luck
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
    __________________________________________________
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    8,537
    It's more of a cost saving measure, to lower insurance rates than a bias one way or another against ccw.

  11. #10
    Member Array Beachbumcook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kansas City Metro
    Posts
    170
    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Beachbumcook,

    I carry, you carry. We both have an "agenda" in that we believe in the right to carry, and choose to exercise that right. Not everyone does. I respect your courage in expressing your thoughts to the business owners that have posted No Weapons signs. I don't think they would suffer any liability as you suggest, but it may get them thinking, at any rate.

    The important thing is that, when you write to these business owners, you don't just give them cause to put your letter in the circular file because it was written by one of those "gun nuts that wants to rambo up and come in here with his AK strapped to his back."

    The fact of the matter is that both sides of this argument can find studies or news articles to defend their position.

    Back in the early 2000's, both the CDC and the NAS formed a joint task force to study the studies promulgated by both sides of the gun issue. While both of these institutions (the CDC and the NAS) could be considered anti-gun, their conclusions were that no laws led to a reduction in violent outcomes... that there was no direct correlation between gun laws banning certain weapons, etc. had no direct effect on violent crime. And also, that there was no correlation between laws making weapons access easier (like "shall issue") and the reduction of violent crime.

    In their own words:


    Source: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

    The important thing is that rather than try to prove them wrong, you just illustrate that you and your fellow carriers aren't wrong either.

    Your object is to "win hearts and minds." Bald facts will seldom do this, especially if the business owner is emotionally invested in his stance. You cannot "win" by presenting the exact opposite of what the anti is thinking. Your best bet is to give him something to think about, and gently steer him in your direction... without being forceful.

    "I understand your concern"
    "I respect your decision"
    "I agree with..." (find something in his stance that you can agree with)

    Then

    "I used to believe..., but then I found out...."
    "You're right about that, but did you know..."
    "I don't know about you, but I would..."
    "I'm sure you thought long and hard about...., and I did too. This is what changed my mind..."

    What you are choosing to do is not easy (in writing to these business owners). And, unlike both you and I in this instance, you need to be able to "grab" them in a lot fewer words.

    Good Luck
    I agree with you 100%!!!!

    I am in sales/marketing and you are spot on as far as trying to convince someone to "see your side or opinion".

    As business owner only understands two things however:

    1) Sales revenue (how much will he loose by having such a policy or can he gain if he changes his policy)?

    2) What is his liability for having his current policy and was he given bad advice by an attorney or insurance company who has not kept up on current laws or liability suits? Some businesses post just out of ignorance and really have no stance on gun control (pro or con)... they just posted becuase they were told to or they thought it was the right thing to do without really thinking or understanding the complete issue.

    The point I am making is that if I am hurt, or if a family member is hurt while inside of a "weapons free zone" of a business, I will file a civil suit against the business. In a civil suit, all one has to do is get a majority of the jury (1/2 of the members +1) that the business was liable and/or had a policy that allowed this "injury to occur" and that it is reasonable that it could have been prevented or that I could have taken possible steps to prevent it myself. It does not take a unaminous decision of the jury like in a criminal trial.

    This is where a business owner and/or their legal staff better reconsider their policies before it is too late... and with the internet and the wealth of information, statistics, reports and media coverage... shootings in "gun free zones" are very popular... so again, it is very easy to prove this point to the sympathic jury... again, all I need is 51% of them to prevail.... now that may get the owner's attention!!!!
    Springfield XDM 40cal
    Safariland Double Magazine Duty Pouch
    High Noon "Slide Guard" Holster - Leather (OWB)
    BladeTech "Eclipse" Holster - Kydex (OWB)
    Aker Reinforced Gun Belt (Leather & Polymer)
    Wilderness Tactical/Operator Belt (Kydex Reinforced)

  12. #11
    Member Array Beachbumcook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kansas City Metro
    Posts
    170
    Here is a link from today (2/8/11) that Denny's Restaurants was found guilty for not protecting their customers.

    http://www.nrn.com/article/denny%E2%...ms-awarded-46m

    Now, this case had nothing to do with "weapons free zone" or anything like that... but wow... just imagine if they had such a policy and an incident like this happened????

    I think the award/settlement would have been more!!!

    Money is what gets businesses and owners to think and change their policies.
    Springfield XDM 40cal
    Safariland Double Magazine Duty Pouch
    High Noon "Slide Guard" Holster - Leather (OWB)
    BladeTech "Eclipse" Holster - Kydex (OWB)
    Aker Reinforced Gun Belt (Leather & Polymer)
    Wilderness Tactical/Operator Belt (Kydex Reinforced)

  13. #12
    Senior Member Array ZX9RCAM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    The Woodlands, Texas
    Posts
    922
    Quote Originally Posted by Beachbumcook View Post
    Here is a link from today (2/8/11) that Denny's Restaurants was found guilty for not protecting their customers.

    http://www.nrn.com/article/denny%E2%...ms-awarded-46m

    Now, this case had nothing to do with "weapons free zone" or anything like that... but wow... just imagine if they had such a policy and an incident like this happened????

    I think the award/settlement would have been more!!!

    Money is what gets businesses and owners to think and change their policies.
    Does this not set some kind of precedence........?
    If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.

    -Will Rogers

    Im a big fan of the .22LR for bear defense.
    Just shoot the guy next to you in the knee and run like heck.

  14. #13
    Member Array Beachbumcook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kansas City Metro
    Posts
    170
    I would think so?

    The issue of this suit, was that the restaurant had "issues" before with drunk and disorderly people and did not take steps or proper steps to ensure the safety of their customers while on/in their restaurant. What steps that would have been, I do not know? I can assure you that no amount of "no weapons allowed" signs would have worked and the article stated that the "shooter shot through the windows from the parking lot into the restaurant.... and yet the restaurant chain and their insurance company were still found liable!!!!
    Springfield XDM 40cal
    Safariland Double Magazine Duty Pouch
    High Noon "Slide Guard" Holster - Leather (OWB)
    BladeTech "Eclipse" Holster - Kydex (OWB)
    Aker Reinforced Gun Belt (Leather & Polymer)
    Wilderness Tactical/Operator Belt (Kydex Reinforced)

  15. #14
    Senior Member Array ks kid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    US
    Posts
    520
    BeachBum, power to you and keep fighting the good fight. I do the samething also with local companies in south central Ks, but use a different tactic. I use the law to prove my points and do it with no emotion, only facts. The difference with the Denny's and most business's, is that Denny's knew that they had an issue, and most business's do not, so no precident is set. The other is the most important and is that you were not forced to go to the store. This is what will shoot you down in court. Freedom of choice, its a double edged sword.

  16. #15
    Member Array Beachbumcook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kansas City Metro
    Posts
    170
    Quote Originally Posted by ks kid View Post
    BeachBum, power to you and keep fighting the good fight. I do the samething also with local companies in south central Ks, but use a different tactic. I use the law to prove my points and do it with no emotion, only facts. The difference with the Denny's and most business's, is that Denny's knew that they had an issue, and most business's do not, so no precident is set. The other is the most important and is that you were not forced to go to the store. This is what will shoot you down in court. Freedom of choice, its a double edged sword.
    Your right... I have a choice, we all do.

    I am not a sue happy kind of guy and actually believe in tort reform.

    The business has a choice... and due to their choice to ban law abiding citizens from having weapons in their store, I take the position that they then assume some additonal responsibility for mine and everyone elses safety? I am not saying they do or don't... but I think it is a legal agrument that could be made based upon the statistics available?

    I am not getting emotional and not loosing sleep over it.... just making a point after seeing the funny poster in post #1.
    Springfield XDM 40cal
    Safariland Double Magazine Duty Pouch
    High Noon "Slide Guard" Holster - Leather (OWB)
    BladeTech "Eclipse" Holster - Kydex (OWB)
    Aker Reinforced Gun Belt (Leather & Polymer)
    Wilderness Tactical/Operator Belt (Kydex Reinforced)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Letter to a 'No Weapons" posted business
    By oakchas in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: February 11th, 2011, 05:58 PM
  2. When I see a sign on a store that says "no weapons".......
    By bruce21b in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: December 26th, 2009, 12:14 AM
  3. "No Guns"- sign an insult...What if it said "No Jews"?
    By goawayfarm in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: November 4th, 2009, 02:38 AM
  4. Good Report: Criminals ignore "gun free zone" signs
    By kimberland in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: February 3rd, 2009, 05:20 PM
  5. Business removed "NO CCW" sign
    By Brian45 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: August 19th, 2005, 09:50 AM

Search tags for this page

attention criminals gun free zone
,
concealed weapon signs
,
free printable no weapons sign
,

gun free zone

,

gun free zone sign

,
gun free zone signs
,

gun signs

,
no weapon signs
,
no weapons poster
,

no weapons sign

,
no weapons sign free printable
,

no weapons signs

Click on a term to search for related topics.