Letter to a 'No Weapons" posted business

Letter to a 'No Weapons" posted business

This is a discussion on Letter to a 'No Weapons" posted business within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As a result of other posts here regarding businesses which have posted no weapons signs, I thought to create a letter I might send to ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Letter to a 'No Weapons" posted business

    As a result of other posts here regarding businesses which have posted no weapons signs, I thought to create a letter I might send to such establishments.

    Addtionally, in our local area, a chief of police has seen fit to send "No Weapons" placards to 600 businesses in his jurisdiction. Story Here

    I look forward to your input
    ________________________________________________

    Dear business owner:

    I really understand your reasons for posting your “No weapons” signage! Probably the last thing you want is some “gun nut” with an assault rifle strapped to his back upsetting the other patrons in your ___________ (restaurant, clothing store, tire shop, what have you).

    Did you know, you could just as easily keep ANY undesirables out of your business by posting a sign that says “Management reserves the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason?”

    You see, you actually know more about that fellow with the “six shooter” on his hip, than you know about any of your other patrons. To even purchase a weapon in this state, he must have passed a Federal NICS check. That check can determine these things about your “gun toting” patron.

    He or she is NOT:

    •A felon.
    •A fugitive from justice.
    •An unlawful user of, or addicted to any controlled substance.
    •An adjudicated mental defective or involuntarily committed to any mental institution.
    •An illegal alien.
    •Someone dishonorably discharged from the U.S. Armed forces.
    •A person who has renounced their U.S. citizenship.
    •Someone under a restraining order for stalking, harassment, or threatening their family.
    •A person who has been convicted of using physical force or a deadly weapon against a spouse, parent, or guardian.
    •Under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year.

    He or she IS:

    •Over 21 (or carrying in a professional capacity as a security guard, member of the armed forces, or law enforcement).

    •Professionally trained in the safe use of their weapon. *

    That’s quite a bit of information, isn’t it? I sure would like to know those things about everybody I chance to meet in a store or on the street.

    Now, I also understand that the NICS check isn’t perfect, as we’ve all recently seen in the national news. But, it is a test that most or all of your other patrons haven’t even had to undergo, and very, very few “bad guys” “slip through the cracks.”

    The last thing anyone wants to see is irresponsible gun owners making people nervous. It’s not good for your business, and it certainly makes responsible gun owners and permit holders look bad.

    But, we still have to admit that having gone through the NICS system; we know more about even that irresponsible gun owner than we do almost anyone else on the street or in your store.

    You (or your management team) have nothing to fear by discretely asking the patron openly carrying his weapon to leave. Their refusal to do so would make them guilty of trespass. And, since they value their permit to carry, they would probably leave without incident. After all, they have more to lose than any other patron, and you both know that. And that’s something you don’t know about any other patron in your establishment.

    As for the responsible weapons permit holders who see your current signage, many will choose not to patronize your establishment. They have made a conscious decision that protecting their loved ones is more important to them than which _________ (restaurant, tire shop, what have you) they spend their money in. We certainly can’t blame them for that.

    If you should have any questions; while I don’t pretend to have all the answers, I would be more than happy to answer anything I can. And, if you want more information on the NICS check you can find that information here:
    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nic...ion/fact-sheet

    Best wishes for your continued success,


    Signature

    *may not apply in certain states.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    You also need to have a * by the 21 years old or carrying professionally. I carry professionally at 20 years old, got hired as a professional at 19 and have been carrying a concealed weapon since my permit came in 2 months after i turned 18. In some states the law to open carry is 18 and in a few you can conceal at 18. Since my permit is recognized by many different states i may also carry concealed in those states. just wanted to help you get everything accurate
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

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    Senior Member Array Ragin Cajun's Avatar
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    It's too long and rambles on. You will loose their attention before making your point. You lost mine. Also, take out "gun nut" and " irresponsible gun owners", that is what they will focus on and you will only reassure them for their signage because in their mind, that is why they put it up to begin with. Short, sweet, to the point, and positive.

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    Member Array jwarren's Avatar
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    I'll tell ya, I have just decided.....forget'em......concerning businesses that post signs. I will not waste my time trying to get them to do something that might actually help their business.

    If I want or need to use their business, I will......if not, I will not. They are free to do as they choose, as am I.
    Last edited by jwarren; February 9th, 2011 at 01:01 AM.

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    New Member Array scott 40sw's Avatar
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    The value of the sign is different according to state law. In GA there is no law addressing CCW and signage, I carry anyway. If they spot the gun and ask me to leave I comply with their wishes and remind them they are creating a crime zone and I won't be spending any money there.
    Scott V
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    http://www.centerfiretraining.com
    Are you Ready?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott 40sw View Post
    The value of the sign is different according to state law. In GA there is no law addressing CCW and signage, I carry anyway. If they spot the gun and ask me to leave I comply with their wishes and remind them they are creating a crime zone and I won't be spending any money there.
    If they spot the gun then we have failed at being concealed. We cannot be that complacent in how we carry as that just adds fuel to the fire. I agree that we need to be firm with our argument to honor the 2A and I have many issues with the process of concealed carry, especially here in NC. I do know that what we have to go through here to get our CCW permit should clear us to carry in a great deal more places that we can. In fact, in NC a CCW permit actually restricts where you go almost in an insane way. I too would leave off any reference to crazies or anything like that and I would shorten it up as well. I liked the emphasis on the extra training, background checks, etc. as that is a valid argument for carrying in a business. I definitely would not open with any "understanding" of their actions because that justifies them right from the start. Instead, I would say that I don't understand their decision and then lay out a concise and clear argument for my position. The point is to get these people to engage in an open dialogue where we can become a teacher not a defender. For open carry (which is the most comfortable by far) this is more of a problem. They can easily see the weapon and in some states there is no training etc. so the business owner really does not know you (who have been trained) from Joe who just thinks that it cool to have a gun on his hip. Again, this goes back to education. We have allowed the 2A to be watered down and encroached upon for over 100 years and it will take awhile to re-educate the populace away from the sheep mentality. But if we do our job then every person that we touch will in turn touch at least one more and so on. In time (if we have it) we will turn this thing around. In the mean time we have to support the imperfect NRA, GOA, CCRKBA, Second Amendment Foundation, etc. to help stave off the attacks at the political level while we do our thing one person at a time. We can and will win this battle if we persevere.

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Shorter, less jargon, and less sarcasm.

    On the good side, I do appreciate that you are willing to take the time to let them know what you think of their policy. But in reality it's a business letter. Short and to the point or it will get tossed in the trash or ignored.

    To paraphrase A River Runs Through It..... "Again, half as long."
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

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    New Member Array poleclimber9's Avatar
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    I saw that interview on the news this morning...don't know what to say. Politics. I have to say I agree with all of your points but it is too long, they need to be said but it should be shorter or it will end up in the trash.

    I do want to thank you for your time and patience in trying to make things right, though.

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragin Cajun View Post
    It's too long and rambles on. You will loose their attention before making your point. You lost mine. Also, take out "gun nut" and " irresponsible gun owners", that is what they will focus on and you will only reassure them for their signage because in their mind, that is why they put it up to begin with. Short, sweet, to the point, and positive.
    I understand the length problem.. it is 1.5 pages long. The reason for the quotes around "gun nut" is that, unfortunately , that is how we are seen by those who don't carry.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwarren View Post
    I'll tell ya, I have just decided.....forget'em......concerning businesses that post signs. I will not waste my time trying to get them to do something that might actually help their business.

    If I want or need to use their business, I will......if not, I will not. They are free to do as they choose, as am I.
    The probblem is that the chief of police sent his letters and stickers to 600 businesses in the town. The entire city's retail venues could be "off limits" to responsible gun owners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armydad View Post
    ... I definitely would not open with any "understanding" of their actions because that justifies them right from the start. Instead, I would say that I don't understand their decision and then lay out a concise and clear argument for my position. The point is to get these people to engage in an open dialogue where we can become a teacher not a defender. ...
    I get that it's somewhat distasteful to say we understand the reason for the sign. But it's a whole lot easier to have a discussion with someone when you can be seen as open minded yourself... It's a "sell." You are coming along side of him, and helping him steer in the "right" direction... You are not placing yourself directly opposite his decision from the outset.

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    Shorter, less jargon, and less sarcasm.

    On the good side, I do appreciate that you are willing to take the time to let them know what you think of their policy. But in reality it's a business letter. Short and to the point or it will get tossed in the trash or ignored.

    To paraphrase A River Runs Through It..... "Again, half as long."
    Thanks, I can reduce the length by eiminating the second half page. As to Jargon... Well antis tend to think of gun owners, and especially those who carry, as "Gun nuts" or more specifically as: insecure or paranoid, inarticulate or ignorant, angry and defensive, and stubbornly set in their ways (which in their eyes, are wrong). As to sarcasm ,I tried to avoid any sarcasm directed at the business owner... but did use a little self deprication on "irresponsible gun owners," I guess. Can you point out what you meant by sarcasm?

    Quote Originally Posted by poleclimber9 View Post
    I saw that interview on the news this morning...don't know what to say. Politics. I have to say I agree with all of your points but it is too long, they need to be said but it should be shorter or it will end up in the trash.

    I do want to thank you for your time and patience in trying to make things right, though.
    Trying like heck to shorten it to a bit less than one page....

    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris
    You also need to have a * by the 21 years old or carrying professionally. I carry professionally at 20 years old, got hired as a professional at 19 and have been carrying a concealed weapon since my permit came in 2 months after i turned 18. In some states the law to open carry is 18 and in a few you can conceal at 18. Since my permit is recognized by many different states i may also carry concealed in those states. just wanted to help you get everything accurate
    I din't make that clear enough in the post... I think I fixed it.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Okay, here's the shortened version...

    Please, be specific about what you think I should remove and still make the necessary points. I know it needs tightening up... As it stands now, it is one full page
    ____________________________________________
    Dear business owner:

    I really understand your reasons for posting your “No weapons” signage! Probably the last thing you want is some “gun nut” with an assault rifle strapped to his back upsetting the other patrons in your ___________ (restaurant, clothing store, tire shop, what have you).

    Did you know you could just as easily keep ANY undesirables out of your business by posting a sign that says “Management reserves the right to refuse service to anyone?”

    You see, you actually know more about that fellow with the “six shooter” on his hip, than you know about any of your other patrons. To even purchase a weapon in this state, he must have passed a Federal NICS check. That FBI check tells you this about your patron:

    He or she is NOT:

    • A felon.
    • A fugitive from justice.
    • An unlawful user of, or addicted to any controlled substance.
    • An adjudicated mental defective or involuntarily committed to any mental institution.
    • An illegal alien.
    • Someone dishonorably discharged from the U.S. Armed forces.
    • A person who has renounced their U.S. citizenship.
    • Someone under a restraining order for stalking, harassment, or threatening their family.
    • A person who has been convicted of using physical force or a deadly weapon against a spouse, parent, or guardian.
    • Under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year.

    He or she IS:

    • Over 21 (or, if not over 21, is carrying in a professional capacity as a security guard, member of the armed forces, or law enforcement).
    • Has had training in the safe use of their weapon. *

    That’s quite a bit of information, isn’t it? I sure would like to know those things about everybody I chance to meet in a store or on the street.

    Signature
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  11. #11
    Member Array jwarren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post

    The probblem is that the chief of police sent his letters and stickers to 600 businesses in the town. The entire city's retail venues could be "off limits" to responsible gun owners.
    Just for the record and in response to this rather self righteous comment..... I am a responsible gun owner. My statement that I would choose whether or not to patronize a business meant that if I choose to enter, I would be unarmed.

    I think businesses have every right to deny firearms in their establishments and I will comply if I choose to enter.

    I will expend no energy trying to change their mind or strong arm them into compliance.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, I wasn't being self righteous. You and I are responsible gun owners... if the entire city's retail venues were posted, would it not make the town pretty much off limits for someone who chose to protect themselves by legally carrying a weapon?

    As to expending energy, I surely am not trying to strongarm anyone. The police chief is... but I'm not...

    If in GA, a move is made to eliminate the right to carry entirely... Would you then expend some energy? WOW... I thought rights were worth fighting for, especially in a civil manner.


    BTW... And not in relation to Jwarrens post...
    Here's the video interview of the police chief:
    http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/Gun-B...115514049.html
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  13. #13
    Member Array jwarren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    WOW... I thought rights were worth fighting for, especially in a civil manner.
    I do not agree with the decision of a business to make guns off limits.

    However, private property rights trump my right to carry.

    I would fight to preserve my right to carry, however, it has never been my right to carry on someone else's property if they are not in agreement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poleclimber9 View Post
    I saw that interview on the news this morning...don't know what to say. Politics. I have to say I agree with all of your points but it is too long, they need to be said but it should be shorter or it will end up in the trash.I do want to thank you for your time and patience in trying to make things right, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    Shorter, less jargon, and less sarcasm. On the good side, I do appreciate that you are willing to take the time to let them know what you think of their policy. But in reality it's a business letter. Short and to the point or it will get tossed in the trash or ignored.

    To paraphrase A River Runs Through It..... "Again, half as long."


    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^YEP^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    The shorter version is a lot better!!!!!




    Quote Originally Posted by jwarren View Post
    I do not agree with the decision of a business to make guns off limits.

    However, private property rights trump my right to carry.I would fight to preserve my right to carry, however, it has never been my right to carry on someone else's property if they are not in agreement.


    ^^^^Can someone please tell me how a place or business,^^^^^

    open to the general public is PRIVATE!!!
    My home is private, because I do not allow guests in Uninvited.
    Thats private.

    A place which sells things, or serves food for money is OPEN to the public and therefore really isn't private.
    Am I missing something???

    In Michigan, as in other dictatorial states, they have banned all smoking in virtually every business, retail , office bldg. and public, or private place, save for your home and the casinos.

    What would you yardbirds do if they did that with firearms????
    Stay home???
    You guys with this ,"hey its their private property" rights bullcrap need to get a grip.



    THE POLICE CHIEF OF MARION IS AN IDIOT.




    There's a fine line between fishing and standing on the shore looking like an idiot.
    I would rather die with good men than hide with cowards
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy."

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  15. #15
    Member Array jwarren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^YEP^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    The shorter version is a lot better!!!!!








    ^^^^Can someone please tell me how a place or business,^^^^^

    open to the general public is PRIVATE!!!
    My home is private, because I do not allow guests in Uninvited.
    Thats private.

    A place which sells things, or serves food for money is OPEN to the public and therefore really isn't private.
    Am I missing something???

    In Michigan, as in other dictatorial states, they have banned all smoking in virtually every business, retail , office bldg. and public, or private place, save for your home and the casinos.

    What would you yardbirds do if they did that with firearms????
    Stay home???
    You guys with this ,"hey its their private property" rights bullcrap need to get a grip.



    THE POLICE CHIEF OF MARION IS AN IDIOT.




    There's a fine line between fishing and standing on the shore looking like an idiot.
    It is the same right that entitles an employer to say that you cannot carry while working for him.

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