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Potential scenario at work...

5K views 64 replies 45 participants last post by  Ragin Cajun 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I had a vehicle accident happen a block away from my position. Obviously I activated my lights and moved over there to assist since the accident involved an employee of the site I was assigned too. The employee was ok as was the driver of the other vehicle. I called for Metro PD to assist and requested my supervisor to come on scene which is SOP. I then began to collect information from both people. The driver at fault was very polite and cooperative. When Metro began to talk to him I turn around from talking to my supervisor to observe the Metro officer removing a firearm from the gentleman's waistband. The whole time he had it and I was unaware of it. He had already given me a vibe that he was going to run so I made it impossible for him to run by directing him into a closed parking lot, and had him waiting in his vehicle to stay warm. He was very polite the whole time, but his body language was saying something else. He did have a LTCH and the gun was legal. The point I am getting at is had I known he had the weapon, I would have treated him differently from the beginning with even more caution on my point. LEO's I get why you take guns from licensed people during stops, I wish I had known at the time that I was not only allowed to ask, I was SUPPOSED to ask if he had any weapons. He could have pulled and shot me dead when I turned to walk to the other vehicle if he had wanted too, and I didn't know him from Adam. He never said hey I'm legally armed, heres my permit, nothing, I had no indication. Please inform a police officer or security officer your legally carrying if you are being detained. I should have checked but I didn't, and nothing happened. Next time I might not be so lucky. I'm really looking for feedback from LEO's here, but anyone can chime in. BTW, the reason he would not have been allowed to leave had he said hey, i'm out of here, is because I was preventing the crime of fleeing the scene of an accident, and I had PC to believe he had been drinking, based on the smell of liquour on his breath. So for those that would immediately attack that, theres my reasoning. The employee of my site was not allowed to leave because of the same reason that fleeing the scene of an accident is a crime, and I believe it is a felony in Indiana.
 
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#2 ·
From a non leo perspective -

In states that one is not required to tell the officers (lets not get into the debate over should or should not regardless of law, plenty of other threads dedicated to that), if the weapon holder is a law abiding citizen, with a permit...He's/She's one of us, you have very little to worry about. If the individual is a criminal in illegal possession/concealment, they are obviously not going to volunteer to you that they're carrying, and if you ask, they're gonna lie.

Not sure if you have the authority to do a search/pat down in your position.
 
#52 ·
^^^^^^^I'm in this camp^^^^^^^^^^


On this one
 
#3 ·
In Utah we don't have to inform. If asked by an officer I will inform as I have nothing to hide. If asked by a security guard I would not inform as its none of there business especially if I am not on the property the guard is working because at that point the guard is just another citizen.
 
#6 ·
If asked by a security guard I would not inform as its none of there business especially if I am not on the property the guard is working because at that point the guard is just another citizen.
This may be why you were getting a bad vibe from the guy, if a security guard approached me on a location he isn't even assigned to trying to assist with an accident and detain me I'd probably give you a vibe you wouldn't like.
 
#4 ·
The driver at fault was very polite and cooperative. When Metro began to talk to him I turn around from talking to my supervisor to observe the Metro officer removing a firearm from the gentleman's waistband. The whole time he had it and I was unaware of it.
So what?
He had already given me a vibe that he was going to run so I made it impossible for him to run by directing him into a closed parking lot, and had him waiting in his vehicle to stay warm. He was very polite the whole time, but his body language was saying something else. He did have a LTCH and the gun was legal.
Ohnoes!! Was it also "registered" to him? I mean, come on, let's play the full TV line. You thought he was going to run....he didn't. You said he was polite...twice...He was probably embarrassed from getting into a car accident and ruining his evening
The point I am getting at is had I known he had the weapon, I would have treated him differently from the beginning with even more caution on my point.
Shouldn't you assume that all have weapons you can't see?
LEO's I get why you take guns from licensed people during stops, I wish I had known at the time that I was not only allowed to ask, I was SUPPOSED to ask if he had any weapons.
I don't. By your admission, the only thing he was at fault with was a car accident.
He could have pulled and shot me dead when I turned to walk to the other vehicle if he had wanted too, and I didn't know him from Adam.
And he didn't...same could be said for anyone else on the street.
He never said hey I'm legally armed, heres my permit, nothing, I had no indication.
Is he legally required to?
Please inform a police officer or security officer your legally carrying if you are being detained.
No. Not unless it is legally required. My gun is my business...it has nothing to do with my speeding....or in this case, a car accident.
I should have checked but I didn't, and nothing happened. Next time I might not be so lucky.
I thought you weren't allowed to ask.
I'm really looking for feedback from LEO's here, but anyone can chime in. BTW, the reason he would not have been allowed to leave had he said hey, i'm out of here, is because I was preventing the crime of fleeing the scene of an accident, and I had PC to believe he had been drinking, based on the smell of liquour on his breath. So for those that would immediately attack that, theres my reasoning. The employee of my site was not allowed to leave because of the same reason that fleeing the scene of an accident is a crime, and I believe it is a felony in Indiana.
Thus, staying in your lane.
 
#7 ·
The first question that comes to my mind is was did this take place on the property you are gaurding? If so you have some authority there, depending on state law. If not your just another civilian.

I wish I had known at the time that I was not only allowed to ask, I was SUPPOSED to ask if he had any weapons.
Is this by state law, or company SOP? While I would inform an LEO (without whether required or not) I was carrying, I would not inform a security gaurd, even if asked.

Sorry, but lights on your company vehicle and a uniform does not make you an LEO. Don't expect to be treated like one.
 
#10 ·
While I would inform an LEO (without whether required or not) I was carrying, I would not inform a security gaurd, even if asked.

Sorry, but lights on your company vehicle and a uniform does not make you an LEO. Don't expect to be treated like one.
I must agree with the above. Although some security guards may in fact be assigned to jobs in dangerous places, they are nevertheless private citizens. They have no police power and may find themselves in trouble when they act or believe that they do.
 
#8 ·
"My could have been fatal mistake last night"

The title of your post betrays your mindset.

I must say that I am somewhat offended by your assumption that this man posed more of a threat to you simply because he carried a concealed weapon. If he was legal and had a permit then he likely posed way less threat to you than the average employee who is not licensed to carry.

Armed good guys are on your side!
 
#11 ·
I'd really want to know a great deal more about the nature of your job and where the accident happened relative to your official duties, and also----what does your state law say about how accidents on private property are handled. I think around here unless someone decides they need to call the police, it remains a private deal between the two drivers.
 
#12 ·
I'm with sticks. You make it sound like all of us should be volunteering information that has nothing to do with the purpose of the stop. It was a traffic accident. Big deal. It's not like you heard shots being fired and responded. I don't walk by the mall cops and say, just so you know, I'm carrying concealed.

And I'm with shockwave, too, plus I'll take it a step further... at least that was easier reading through than the folks who don't use the space bar inbetween sentences. You know who you are ;^)
 
#13 ·
Hopefully, this scene isn't taking place in an attorney's office today:

Driver: "I was in an auto accident leaving work the other day, and now my back hurts. By chiropractor says I'll need 17.5 years of weekly treatments."
Attorney: "Where did the accident happen, and how"
Driver: "I was headed out of the lot and this guy hit me. Then then security guy, Officer Chris, showed up and had us move our cars and give him information while we waited for the police."
Attorney (drooling slightly): "An agent of Deep Pockets corporation ordered you to get into your car and drive it without a medical evaluation? My dear man, we'll fight for you. (thinking - A MIST* case with deep pockets! They'll settle for a nice chunk of change in short order)"

I'd be more worried about that than the fact that a person you contacted was lawfully carrying a gun.

Matt

(* MIST - Minimal Impact Soft Tissue - PI lawyer-speak for a case the attorney knows is rubbish, but it's hard to prove either way and the opposing insurer will probably pay to make go away)
 
#16 ·
Well I get that security work can be dnagerous in the right circumstances. Otherwise they would not feel the need to have you armed and protecting somebody elses valuable property. However, "observe and report" is not just a Seth Rogen movie. I understand going to the accident and doing traffic control to keep the accident from getting bigger. That is where your official duties stop. IMO. MattinFl makes the best point here. watch and fill out a witness statement.
 
#17 ·
With all due respect to the OP, I sense "mission creep" on the part of a private security guard. Motor vehicle accident on private or even public property which is not his assigned premises? If I'm one of the involved drivers, I'll accept help and friendly direction from a security guard the same as I would from a Good Samaritan or a Boy Scout... but don't start getting ID and "collecting information" from me. And since he's a private citizen with no more legal authority than a nosy neighbor, I won't react kindly to any questions about whether I'm armed.

INccwchris, from this and many of your other posts it's clear you are enthusiastic about your job and you have a stong 'bent' toward cop work. What's keeping you from committing to the academy and getting a real public service badge?
 
#47 · (Edited)
INccwchris, from this and many of your other posts it's clear you are enthusiastic about your job and you have a stong 'bent' toward cop work. What's keeping you from committing to the academy and getting a real public service badge?
Posts like this.

Chris, stay on property and keep your nose where it belongs. Thats about the best and most honest advice I can give.

BTW, the reason he would not have been allowed to leave had he said hey, i'm out of here, is because I was preventing the crime of fleeing the scene of an accident, and I had PC to believe he had been drinking, based on the smell of liquour on his breath. So for those that would immediately attack that, theres my reasoning. The employee of my site was not allowed to leave because of the same reason that fleeing the scene of an accident is a crime, and I believe it is a felony in Indiana.
Oh really? So you were detaining both drivers off site for the commision of what crime? Where did it take place? You had PC to believe he had drinking? No kidding? Probable cause to believe.... Wow. A 21 year old legal clerk would have a field day with that one. Please do tell me, what does liquor smell like? You believe its a felony or it is? That is something you ought to have figured out before you detain somebody where you have no business being in the first place.

He had already given me a vibe that he was going to run so I made it impossible for him to run by directing him into a closed parking lot, and had him waiting in his vehicle to stay warm.
So let me get this straight; In order to prevent him from leaving, you told him to get back in his car and drive. It doesnt matter if you told him to go to a closed lot... you had what you suspected to be a drunk driver get back into his car, drive, and remain in control of the car while the situation played out. Wow. Sorry to say, I would have fired you on the spot for that one. This whole story is one epic failure after another. I can pick apart the entire thing without trying very hard. I cant even imagine what would happen if this went to criminal or civil court. Wow...failure.

Not to mention the fact that you left your post. The company that hires your company expects a guard to be posted on their site, keeping it secure. Who was doing your job while you were a block away trying to do somebody elses job? You left the site unsecure? Obviously the man who pays the bills feels a guard is needed there, and you left?
 
#18 ·
If he was going to shoot you, he would have done so. I don't think he would've said "oh drats! He asked me to give up my gun! Now I *have* to give it over!" If he's intent on murder, why would he voluntarily comply with a non-LEOs commands?

Plus, you're at reduced risk compared to a LEO in these instances. If they decide to run, you can't really stop them like a LEO can, or chase after them, like a LEO can. So even if they were going to murder someone, they really have no reason to kill you, since you're not really a threat to them in that sense.

No disrespect intended to the OP, just some monday morning quarterbacking.
 
#19 ·
In Texas unless your a sworn peace officer, which security either armed or unarmed are not, I am not required to do anything, show anything or answer anything you ask of me.

Whether there was a employee of your company involved in the accident really has nothing to do with this situation from what I can tell. Also, if it was a minor auto accident the two drivers could simply exchange ID and insurance info without the LEO's being involved.

As others have pointed out, a bit too much reaction from what I can tell.
 
#23 ·
A few questions come to mind.

1. Was this accident on your client's property or a public roadway?
2. Was the armed driver arrested? (you mentioned smelling alcohol)
3. What would you have done if the guy had told you he had a gun?

Matt
 
#25 ·
I'm sure the LEO's appreciated you responding in a timely manner and preventing what could have escalated into 2 guys exchanging Insurance Info without getting the PD involved
 
#26 ·
if he had said i have a gun but i licensed to carry I would have said ok, leave yours where its at and ill leave mine here its at, i was following company SOP and i was on my assigned site. I even stated that i was on property that i was assigned too and an employee of the site i was assigned too. As far as injuries there were none, and I was required to get the informaton for a report. Also the accident took place at the exit gate to the property but the employee was still on property i was assigned too. I agree that maybe I freaked out a bit too much, but the guy made me nervous. I typed this post literally 3 hours after it happened and I had not had time to think things through. Looking back on what I wrote, I still would have liked to know that he was carrying. Not that I could do anything about it. My authority covers the property I am assigned too, and the employees. Since this accident involved both, I was required to get involved. It is kind of hard to describe the way the accident occured without being able to draw it out for you. Basically imagine your driveway. Now imagine someone coming across the wrong side of the road and into your driveway enough to smash into your car but not enough to get stuck in your yard or in the fence. I think I overreacted and in the future will take time to think before posting. Gassmitty, in answer to your question I am still waiting on the age requirnment to be met to apply to a Academy. Hopefully I will be in the academy early next year or late this year. The next question, was the second driver arrested, no, he passed the sobriety test but admitted to drinking 3 beers before the accident happened. So he had been drinking but was not impared. As for contacting LEO's that is also SOP in the situation, plus there was over 500 dollers worth of damage and 2 people involved, I had to contact LEO's as per my company policy



lookin back I realize I said that this happened a block away from my position, now I understand where the confusion lies. The place I normaly sit in the company vehicle is on site and a block away from the point on site where this happened. I work a rather large medical facility that encompases 5 blocks
 
#28 ·
I can see you getting involved on company property but you keep saying it was a company employee also. If that employee was off the property then you would have been over stepping your bounds as you are there to protect the property and the employees while on the property.

Sounds like you need to do some thinking and soul searching before you get to the academy as it appears that you like your perceived power as a security guard and need to get your head adjusted to serving the people.
 
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