February 22nd, 2011 10:19 AM
Off-duty LEO and reporting requirements
I think I know the answer to this, but I'll ask anyway...
The recent thread about identifying yourself to a security guard made me curious. Must one disclose CCW if asked by an off-duty LEO? What if the LEO is off-duty, but employed as security/traffic control for a private business? What if the LEO has no uniform or badge displayed and does not identify himself as a LEO before asking the question?
February 22nd, 2011 11:06 AM
No, you dont have to. If he is working as a guard, then he is a guard.
February 22nd, 2011 11:20 AM
Methinks it would depend upon the performance of official duties status of the LEO at the time he asks the question. An off-duty officer in plainclothes could easily step into the category of performing the duties of a sworn officer. Conversely an officer working in uniform providing security at a mall jewelry store would not seem to me to be performing any official duties at that moment.
February 22nd, 2011 11:30 AM
It seems to me that any law requiring you to disclose your armed status to an LEO should require that the LEO be on duty and in uniform; otherwise any crook could pretend to be an off duty cop, and disarm and attack you. In this connection however it appears that the Oklahoma law on notification makes no such requirement.
Anti-gunners seem to believe that if we just pass enough laws, we can have utopia. Unfortunately, utopia is NOT one of our choices.
February 22nd, 2011 11:58 AM
My agency requires you to get permission before you work in any off duty capacity, regardless of if it's private security or working as a cashier in Wally world. A sworn officer is never really off duty, and can invoke sworn powers as necassary to uphold and enforce laws. I would say that most choose to avoid situations where they invoke sworn status, as they are moonlighting to earn extra income and want to make their second job as easily as possible.
However, if an LE is in the uniform of a private security firm, but breaks out his credintials , thereby invoking his sworn status, then you must comply as you would with any other sworn officer.
February 22nd, 2011 12:02 PM
Tell him to "Get Bent".
Originally Posted by jfnixon
February 22nd, 2011 12:51 PM
then he looks like a regular civilian, regular civilians do not get told if im carrying or not, would not a LEO working security still be a LEO, If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? All wonderfully philosophical questions. Fortunately the LEO remains a LEO, in uniform, out of uniform, as long as they ID themselves as such
"The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."
February 22nd, 2011 02:50 PM
In Texas it would depend on whether or not you know he is a peace officer.
If he doesn't identify himself and show his credentials then tough luck.
GC §411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. (a) If a license
holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's
person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license
holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license
holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the
department and the license holder's handgun license.
If he is either in uniform which would mean he is doing overtime work through the department or authorized to wear his uniform by his agency at the second job, or it gets to the point where he has to show his ID to me to identify himself then I will produce mine as the law requires.
Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
Texas CHL Instructor
Texas Hunter Education Instructor
February 22nd, 2011 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by glockman10mm
This happens regularly and is commonly featured here (!) at DC.com in the G/B/U sub-area toward news events as recent as last week with a LEO off-duty going instantly 'on duty' so as to act on behalf of state law to enforce it (active shooter in a bar).
You cannot identify yourself to a LEO who is acting covertly as a LEO, that is in being out of official overt well recognized at the exterior law enforcement officer clothing and apparel OR as to have an identifying badge or other form of official capacity as a LEO type ID displayed.
So that question simply answers itself.
But if you are contacted by a person who initially (start of contact) indicates that they are a law enforcement officer, acting as security or what ever else, AND they establish this to be fact by presentation of credentials...Then yeah this person is now the po-po and no longer just Joe Slow of Wackenhut.
Same applys if in your initial contact Joe Slow security guard, or say very commonly bar staff/security person, does not choose to identify himself as to be a police. Again you cannot be expected to comply to LEO conditions when it's not established that the person is as fact a LEO.
But...If subsequent to first contact Joe Slow then there after chooses to identify himself as to be a police and displays credentials to establish same, well then now in that immediate you are being detained (!) by a police and any actions/statements you make from there forward should be considering with that understanding in mind.
This is no different than LEOs working any other place such as security at a store or in a bar, both being very very common.
Or even being in public space and having an either plain clothes or off-duty LEO contact you as to ID himself as same toward a matter of law and active law enforcement.
As opposed to say me running into an off duty street clothed state police in the magazine aisle at Barnes & Noble and by that thinking (erroneously!) oh my gosh I need to let him know I'm carrying.
This latter scenario is real, it actually happened to me 4 weeks ago and I knew the person right out the gate was a police because I did an instruction with him 4 yrs. ago, to which he recognized me immediately, In that conversation he commented jokingly that he's "...Just another legally armed citizen!", and to that he commented he assumed I was as well. Correct.
Folks this is not tough stuff to discern.
Use your noodle and act accordingly as by situational context.
Police very commonly work secondary side jobs in all fields; Off-duty as side work.
I've had one come to my home hired to climb a tree and trim large branches for me as by way of a contract company I'd hired. Another I've known worked as an autoshop mechanic on the side.
Just don't walk up to your cop neighbor, or Joe Slow of Wackenhut, talking about the sex slave you have in your basement that you bought off the iternets for $2K while with a doobie in hand, gun in the other and with coke residue on your nose then you'll generally be well and fine....And not featured on C.O.P.S. or Worlds Dumbest Criminals.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
February 22nd, 2011 05:57 PM
I think the key fact in states that require you to notify, is that the inter-action must be in an official capacity. If moon lighting on a second job, unless the individual identifies him/herself as an LEO, there is no official capacity being preformed. Once they identify themselves it becomes an official capacity. If no uniform is being worn and no credentials are produced, they are not an LEO.
Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.
NRA Life Member
February 22nd, 2011 06:12 PM
I don't. No requirement that I ever heard of anyplace for that.
Originally Posted by jfnixon
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