When does a gun become NOT A THREAT

When does a gun become NOT A THREAT

This is a discussion on When does a gun become NOT A THREAT within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am not sure where to post this. If wrong place please move The "In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" has ...

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Thread: When does a gun become NOT A THREAT

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    When does a gun become NOT A THREAT

    I am not sure where to post this. If wrong place please move

    The "In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" has a thread running where a Son shoots at the BGs that are shooting at his folks after robbing them. This brought something to mind that has bothered me for some time.

    After being robbed at the point of a gun. At what point is the gun no longer a threat? If they turn and walk away is it no longer a threat? They are walking away! But at what distances can you no longer makes hits?

    I feel has long as they have the gun that they showed they were willing to use they are a threat. Even if they turn and walk away before I could draw my gun I would draw and hold gun on him as they walk away. If they stop or turn to look at me in my range of making hits they then become a threat to my life and I would react accordingly.

    OK lets hear from all of you
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes


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    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    I am not sure where to post this. If wrong place please move

    The "In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" has a thread running where a Son shoots at the BGs that are shooting at his folks after robbing them. This brought something to mind that has bothered me for some time.

    After being robbed at the point of a gun. At what point is the gun no longer a threat? If they turn and walk away is it no longer a threat? They are walking away! But at what distances can you no longer makes hits?

    I feel has long as they have the gun that they showed they were willing to use they are a threat. Even if they turn and walk away before I could draw my gun I would draw and hold gun on him as they walk away. If they stop or turn to look at me in my range of making hits they then become a threat to my life and I would react accordingly.

    OK lets hear from all of you
    You pretty much nailed it.

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    The level or extent of a lethal threat resides within you. Notwithstanding, you must articulate your ‘fear for life’ in such a manner to demonstrate that any reasonable person may have done the same thing. IMHO of course.
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
    ~ Stephen King

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    You're asking for a black & white answer in a legal world of gray. A lot will depend on how a DA or jury views the potential of a threat. It may fall under the "reasonable person" concept, but again, that reasonable person may not be you: it may be those sitting on the jury.

    If and when you find yourself in such a situation, you make a decision. Remember: it's defense, not revenge.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    After being robbed at the point of a gun. At what point is the gun no longer a threat? If they turn and walk away is it no longer a threat? They are walking away! But at what distances can you no longer makes hits?
    The legalities will depend on your state statues, of course.

    In Oregon, the citizen is basically the judge at the moment, using the "reasonable man" standard as to whether life and limb is under grave threat. If you, the victim, legitimately feel that there is an immediate and unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm, then you have every right and legal justification to defend your life or the lives of other innocents. But the moment the immediate threat has passed, then at some point timing is going to dictate that any attack on the felon is going to be reasonably construed as punishment for having dared threaten the victim, punishment after the fact. As well, the jury of your peers gets to decide whether that was actually the case, if it ends up going to criminal court.

    Elsewhere, in other states, the standards might be somewhat different, including possibly a duty to retreat, etc. Heck, in the U.K., for example, it's basically so bad that there are instances of victims daring to lift a finger in their defense being later fingered as the criminals in the situation for having threatened and harmed another, despite the fact that the "other" was the felon caught in the act and resisted against.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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    Distinguished Member Array Black Knight's Avatar
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    Check out Tennessee vs. Garner. This is a case that most law enforcement firearms instructors know well. One part of it stipulates that if a subject flees the scene even if they have a gun; if that gun is not pointed at you it would not be advisable to fire. If the officer believes that letting the subject go poses more threat to the public than shooting him them it may be permissable to shoot him. You are not a law enforcement officer and this case applys only to them but take note, if you shoot a robber while they are leaving and pose no further threat (the gun is not pointed at you) then you could be looking at jail time. If they point the gun at you or someone under your care then all bets are off. When I taught security officers in Virginia I advised them to simply let them go and be a good witness unless the subject was attempting to continue to use deadly force on them or someone else. If the robber has broken off the attack and is leaving your drawing of your weapon could be considered a second attack (you attacking the robber). I know it sounds corny but sometimes the law is a rattlesnake (it bites friend or foe). In the case you mentioned the robber was shooting at the parents when the son engaged the robber and in my opinion should be legal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    The legalities will depend on your state statues, of course.

    In Oregon, the citizen is basically the judge at the moment, using the "reasonable man" standard as to whether life and limb is under grave threat. If you, the victim, legitimately feel that there is an immediate and unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm, then you have every right and legal justification to defend your life or the lives of other innocents.
    Again, I reiterate: the "reasonable person" isn't necessasarily you; it may be what the "reasonable person" sitting on the jury feels. A person may feel threatened by the sight of a snake--any snake--whereas the responable jurist may feel threatened only by a rattler, realizing that a garter snake is harmless.

    Defining a "reasonable" person can be difficult, depending on the situation.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    Senior Member Array Ring's Avatar
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    as long as they have the gun that they showed they were willing to use they are a threat

    YouTube - Good guy 1, Bad guy 0, CCW in action unedited

    this robber came in with a gun in his hand... he was a threat that second ... after being shot, he turned to run out... he was shot 3 for 3 till he dropped on the other side of the door and layed there till the cops showed up...

    he was a threat the whole time, even running away since he never dropped the gun..

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Again, I reiterate: the "reasonable person" isn't necessasarily you; it may be what the "reasonable person" sitting on the jury feels.
    Agreed, which is why I also stated the additional part that wasn't included in your snipped portion of my text:

    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    As well, the jury of your peers gets to decide whether that was actually the case, if it ends up going to criminal court.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ring View Post
    as long as they have the gun that they showed they were willing to use they are a threat

    YouTube - Good guy 1, Bad guy 0, CCW in action unedited

    this robber came in with a gun in his hand... he was a threat that second ... after being shot, he turned to run out... he was shot 3 for 3 till he dropped on the other side of the door and layed there till the cops showed up...

    he was a threat the whole time, even running away since he never dropped the gun..
    In this video the action started while the BG had the gun pointed at you. But what I am looking at is for what ever reason I did not get my gun out before the BG starts to walk away. The crime of the robbery is over but he still has a means of harm that can cover the distance as he walks away. If he was armed with a knife the the threat is leaving but with a gun to me it is still present until he is outside the range of being able to make hits.

    Do we as Joe Citizen have to alway been reactive or are there times we can take the initiative.

    For me your action needs to happen during the robbery, because just like in the other post BG may start to shoot after taking your money, but that is not alway possible.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

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    Member Array DarthMuffin's Avatar
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    A gun is never a threat. The person wielding it is the threat.

    This is very much a case-by-case thing, when you can't articulate a threat to your life there's not a threat. To me, being out of line-of-sight would be a good start.

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    Distinguished Member Array C9H13NO3's Avatar
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    A person who has used a gun to threaten me is no longer a threat when that gun has personally been cleared and chamber checked by me, and no longer in their possession.
    -Ryan

    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMuffin View Post
    A gun is never a threat. The person wielding it is the threat.

    This is very much a case-by-case thing, when you can't articulate a threat to your life there's not a threat. To me, being out of line-of-sight would be a good start.
    It's called CYA.

    Can

    You

    Articulate?

    You have to have some articulateable reason for using deadly force.
    Courage is endurance for one moment more…

    Hollowpoints might expand, but bullets won't shrink.

    Μολών Λαβέ

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    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthmuffin View Post
    a gun is never a threat. The person wielding it is the threat...
    ^^^ this ^^^

    That being said;
    When my gun is in it's holster it is not really a threat to anyone. Nor do I feel threatened by anyone else who may have a holstered or concealed weapon that may be around me.

    HOWEVER!!!

    "IF" I get involved with a BG that threatens me "with" a gun, I would only consider that gun "SAFE" after it is in my possession and the BG (who is the true THREAT) has been neutralized.

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Until one can no longer articulate to the satisfaction and agreement of more reticent individuals that it was so.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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