Local grocery store is gun friendly.....sort of....for certain people

This is a discussion on Local grocery store is gun friendly.....sort of....for certain people within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; For 4 years I have shopped primarily at Basha's grocery 1 mile from my house. within the same mile are 4 other grocery stores. I ...

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Thread: Local grocery store is gun friendly.....sort of....for certain people

  1. #1
    Member Array AZDaven's Avatar
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    Local grocery store is gun friendly.....sort of....for certain people

    For 4 years I have shopped primarily at Basha's grocery 1 mile from my house. within the same mile are 4 other grocery stores. I like the bread and meat from Basha's. Today I noticed (for the first time) a sign in their window by their door. Not sure if it's new or I just noticed it. "No Gun's allowed (unless owner has a CCW)"

    Since I am not a CCW holder, but AZ is constitutional carry state, I guess I am not trusted enough to carry there, which means, I won't be shopping there until I get my CCW, which should be in the next 60 days.

    I don't know how to attach a pic, can someone explain it to me? Thanks.

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    Member Array Varmiter's Avatar
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    I’m sorry to have to say this, but a posted business in AZ ...DOES.... have the weight and authority of law.

    Now, in this particular case, all they are saying is you must have a permit. No more, no less.

    And may I politely ask why it will take you 60 days to get your permit. With my original permit, plus two renewals, the longest time I had to wait was 14 days....including the weekends. Assuming you have yet to take a class, may I suggest you pay real attention to AZ CC law. There are a couple of hidden quirks in AZ law of which a permit holder needs to be aware.

    Lastly, AZ Constitutional Carry does NOT change anything about who may be permitted to own a firearm, nor a change is any prohibited place.

    Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varmiter View Post
    I’m sorry to have to say this, but a posted business in AZ ...DOES.... have the weight and authority of law.
    Pardon me, but I'm a bit skeptical about that, and I've been paying attention. To the best of my knowledge, the only signage that carries the force of law (in AZ) for commercial (not municipal) establishments is that which deals with carrying concealed in places serving liquor for on-premises consumption. Can you cite specific ARS regs?
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    Member Array Varmiter's Avatar
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    Once again, I’m sorry sir.

    You first of all need to review AZ trespass laws. The wording is important.

    Then look into AZ 4-299. Look closely at the posting and signing requirements.

    Then look into Constitutional Carry.

    You can be skeptical all you want.

    Of course I can quote chapter and verse of AZ law. But you really need to look it up yourself, just as I did.

    To put it simply, ANY posted property carries the full weight of the law. (Trespass laws). Look it up.

    The bottom line is a posted hardware store has the same weight in law as an establishment that serves alcohol.

    And here is the real kicker. That sign could easily be a napkin with writing in lipstick, IN ALL CASES. You need to work it out for yourself.....again just as I did.

    Chris

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    There is no apology necessary, I am simply trying to find which part of the AZ trespass laws you assert apply to carrying weapons onto "posted" property.
    Smitty
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    So, Arizona does not have 'standard signage'...... ??? Sounds like that should be the next issue foir the legislature.
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    Member Array Varmiter's Avatar
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    OK......

    First of all, lets look at trespass.

    ARS
    13-1502. Criminal trespass in the third degree; classification

    A. A person commits criminal trespass in the third degree by:

    1. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on any real property after a reasonable request to leave by the owner or any other person having lawful control over such property, or reasonable notice prohibiting entry.

    2. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on the right-of-way for tracks, or the storage or switching yards or rolling stock of a railroad company.

    B. Criminal trespass in the third degree is a class 3 misdemeanor.

    13-1503 and 13-504 continue. However, they too have the same highlighted wording. As to penalties, feel free to look it up yourself.

    NOW, there is no provision outside the above which stipulates “reasonable notice”. Therefore ANY notice is sufficient.

    OK....now we come to 4-229.

    4-229
    4-229 - Licenses; handguns; posting of notice

    Of course, 4-229 has the full weight of the law. The surprise here is that an establishment can post their business on a napkin at all entrances while ignoring 4-229. It carries the same force and weight in law.

    Oh....and another kicker.
    You can only carry in an establishment that serves alcohol if concealed. You must also have a valid CC permit, from any state. Constitutional Carry does not even exist when dealing with an establishment that serves alcohol, or any other posted places.

    Well, not quite true. In your OP, you must have a permit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZDaven View Post
    I don't know how to attach a pic, can someone explain it to me? Thanks.
    In the reply area, find "manage attachments", select the picture on your computer and upload it. There may be a sticky about that in more detail somewhere?
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    So, Arizona does not have 'standard signage'.?
    Yep. Outside of 4-229, which can easily be circumvented to achieve the same goal, there is no stipulations on signage.

    You must understand AZ trespass law history. Cattle rustling, poaching etc. Trespass is taken very seriously here.

    However, I can find no case law where the law was applied to it’s fullest extent.

    So, bottom line, you may get away with it. But if caught, the penalties COULD be more that it was worth.

    Chris

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    Yawn. Yes, Dave, you'd be trespassing. And if they find out that you're carrying concealed, then have the wherewithal to ask you for a permit, and then show you their sign that says you can't carry there and that you're trespassing, and then you say, "Oops, my bad, I will leave now" and all is over. Because that is the MOST that they can do, since they cannot prove you received the trespassing order.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    So, Arizona does not have 'standard signage'...... ??? Sounds like that should be the next issue foir the legislature.
    I agree, the legislature should specify that signs hold no weight of law, as is the case in Utah. That's a much better outcome than saying that only certain signs are legally binding.
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    I wouldn't shop there anymore...and I would let them know why they are losing a faithful customer. There are other options within a mile from you...let them know your money will be going elsewhere.
    Speak softly, and carry a big stick.

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    In Iowa, Lipstick on a napkin is not "reasonable" notice... It could be a prank left by another patron.
    In Iowa, Trespass laws require the owner or agent of the owner to request you leave even if posted as one may not be reasonably expected to see such signage as may be posted.

    Arizona appears to be similar... with the exception of 4-229 which requires the signage to meet specific criteria. So as regards an establishment covered under 4-229, lipstick on a napkin would not suffice, and even if posted within the exact framework of the requirement, no crime is committed unless you were made aware of the posting...

    So, in essence, you have to be asked to leave, unless the establishment has a "greeter" who says something like:
    "Welcome to our store, we are covered under Arizona law 4-229, we have a correctly posted sign which we posted more than 30 days ago, has not fallen down since you arrived, and is right there immediately adjacent to our liquor license, and I hope you're not from out of state becase everything I just said does not apply to you. How may I help you today?"
    Otherwise, in establishments not covered under 4-229, looks like you're pretty much like Iowa, reasonable notice usualy means you have to be informed. Signs do not assure that you have been informed... Especially those in lipstick on napkins.
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    It REALLY might be worth checking in with them on it, especially since you aren't sure if the sign has been there or not. Could it possibly pre-date the constitutional carry change? If it did, it would actually mean they are fairly supportive.

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