New, 'No Permit Necessary' laws

New, 'No Permit Necessary' laws

This is a discussion on New, 'No Permit Necessary' laws within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This may have been covered already, but I couldn't find anything with a quick search so pardon me if I'm beating a dead horse. With ...

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Thread: New, 'No Permit Necessary' laws

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    New, 'No Permit Necessary' laws

    This may have been covered already, but I couldn't find anything with a quick search so pardon me if I'm beating a dead horse.

    With so many states now passing laws to allow concealed carry without permits, what will all this do to reciprocity? When I look at the map on Handgunlaw, Vermonters are only allowed to carry in Arizona and that certainly doesn't sound like it makes it possible to travel much outside of one's own state. Are we going to see two separate divisions of where you can carry....the 'haves' and the 'have nots'? It seems like a resident of Wyoming for instance will no longer be able to carry in Indiana for instance if he no longer has a 'permit'

    I suppose this is an example of why a national carry law would be helpful, but I find it puzzling that gang members can apparently now carry legally in states that used to require training, background checks, and a permit.

    What am I missing here?


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    You are missing the fact that we should have never given away the right to bear arms. We have allowed politicians and lawmakers to legislate away the right of self defense... or pay for the privilege of keeping that right through licensing fees, background checks to prove that we are innocent.

    Too bad if you cant afford the permit or attend the training...you just do without.

    As for the laws, some states such as Missouri, have a law that recognizes any states permit. It wouldn't take much to amend the law that says if no permit is required, then none is needed.

    There is still much work to be done to get it back the way it used to be...when you didn't need permission from the Government to protect yourself.

    I think its a step in the right direction. As for those states that are dominated by crooked politicians, it'll likely be a long time before that right is restored.
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    Here in Wyoming the only real effect of the new law is that people who want to carry concealed in the state can do so without needing anyones permission. It does not affect the current concealed carry licensing procedure in any way. Those of us with permits will still have the same reciprocity under the permitting process that is currently in place and is not going to change with the implemantation of the new law.
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    Quote Originally Posted by past60 View Post
    This may have been covered already, but I couldn't find anything with a quick search so pardon me if I'm beating a dead horse.

    With so many states now passing laws to allow concealed carry without permits, what will all this do to reciprocity? When I look at the map on Handgunlaw, Vermonters are only allowed to carry in Arizona and that certainly doesn't sound like it makes it possible to travel much outside of one's own state. Are we going to see two separate divisions of where you can carry....the 'haves' and the 'have nots'? It seems like a resident of Wyoming for instance will no longer be able to carry in Indiana for instance if he no longer has a 'permit'

    I suppose this is an example of why a national carry law would be helpful, but I find it puzzling that gang members can apparently now carry legally in states that used to require training, background checks, and a permit.

    What am I missing here?
    You aren't missing anything. The points you raise are valid. We have a few legislatures where they are not living in the real world. Constitutional carry is great in theory. Things that are great in theory don't always work out so well in a practical and real world. In fact, the reason permitting became necessary was because prior to widespread bans on concealed weapons and the institution of permitting, things didn't work out at all. E.g., Texans, until recently, and not at all consistent with what most folks tended to think, had rather severe limits on possession of hand guns. There were reasons those stringent laws passed.

    Now, things have loosened up and anyone who is not prohibited (felony conviction) can car carry. It will take time to determine if car carry by non-license holders is a public safety hazard or not. However, while by law we keep records of convictions of license holders, we don't have a mechanism for doing the same with unlicensed car carry. In short, we won't ever find out if unlicensed car carry has or has not lead to an increase in gun violence or illegal possession.

    Now, AZ, having a couple of large population centers, particularly Phoenix Metro region, IS a very very good laboratory to find out what happens when permits are abolished. It will take a few years, but then we will know how crime data changed or not. We will also know if officer mortality rates changed. The experiment is on, but we don't know what the result will be.

    The other states where "constitutional carry" is allowed are too sparsely populated and lack the large diverse cities to draw safety conclusions from.

    I thoroughly disagree with Hot Guns on the idea that training requirements are bad, or that they necessarily prevent lower income people from getting permits. It can happen, but the permitting processes and training requirements can be altered to alleviate those issues. E.g., deep discounts are offered to seniors here.

    I know that I learned a great deal in the licensing courses I took, and I think the benefit greatly outweighs the downside.

    Oh, I don't think gang members can legally carry now in "constitutional carry states." Gang members either will have convictions, will be underage, or be engaged in other unlawful activities which get enhanced charges if a gun is involved. By definition, being a gang member you are part of a group engaged in organized illegal activity and should not be in possession of a handgun or other gun.

    However, I think it will be much more difficult and dangerous for officers who make a stop to know if they are dealing with a good guy or a bad guy. For no reason other than officer safety, so called "constitutional carry" by itself is not all that good an idea. In fact, for officer safety reasons alone, it stinks.

    Hot Guns is an officer and he has strong feelings the other way, and maybe you will find AZ officers who also feel as he does. I just can't see it.

    Again, only time and practice and actual experience will inform us of the realities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Now, AZ, having a couple of large population centers, particularly Phoenix Metro region, IS a very very good laboratory to find out what happens when permits are abolished. It will take a few years, but then we will know how crime data changed or not. We will also know if officer mortality rates changed. The experiment is on, but we don't know what the result will be.
    Morning Hop - I agree that AZ could be a good laboratory for this analysis, but it is not a closed laboratory. I suspect that we will see non-border related crime go down in AZ, but this may be because the BGs just pack up and go to San Deigo or LA. The BGs can make this move in the name of a safer work environment, however, I don't think the conclusions we will draw from AZ will factor in the reduction in the perp population.

    I agree with you that there is a benefit from permits in the event of a stop. I don't think, however, it will be in officer safety. If you choose to carry in AZ without a permit (which I believe can still be obtained, it is just not required), you are likely to be subjecting yourself to a bit rougher treatment than if you proffered a permit from the outset. I see this being a public relations nightmare for the cops, but I don't see them treating a non-permitted person any differently than a BG once the presence of a gun is on the table. If you carry without a permit, you are taking one tool to prove or at least strongly indicate that you are a GG.
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    We do not want the federal Govt to be issuing "permits" to allow carry in all states.
    1st of all, the govt will screw up any program it tries to carry out.
    2nd, it could become as bad as trying to get a permit in NY state, and have us required ro "register" each gun on the permit.

    I am in favor of permits because one shows you have completed the background check, and shows a LEO, on scene, that you are probably the good guy. Yes, you need a govts permission to defend yourself, and it goes against the 2nd amendment, as stated above, but there has to be some checks and balances....

    However, I would be in favor of WHATEVER training would be required to get all the states to honor all others permit. IMHO, I believe the NRA basic pistol course should suffice. I went to Rochester, NY to visit my sister, who is fighting cancer. My Florida resident permit was good in all the states we went thru except NY state. I was a resident there 40 years ago, and had a CWP there, which became void when I moved out. Because of NYs laws, I left the gun home. And, NY state is the one where I would think the need would be the greatest, of all the states we went thru. Yes, I know I could have left it in Pa with a gunsmith and picked it up on the way back, buts that's not the point.
    I did get a pepper spray and my folding knife, and carried them. Best it got.

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    As I set here with my copy of the Constitution of The United States, I read the 2nd Amendment as "A well rugulated Miltia, being neessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." this is not arbitrary, and is binding. It also does not take some intellectual to tell me what they think it says instead of what it actually says. See my signature line below and now you know where I stand on the issue, period, end of debate for myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff F View Post
    As I set here with my copy of the Constitution of The United States, I read the 2nd Amendment as "A well rugulated Miltia, being neessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." this is not arbitrary, and is binding. It also does not take some intellectual to tell me what they think it says instead of what it actually says. See my signature line below and now you know where I stand on the issue, period, end of debate for myself.
    Jeff - I agree with you. I don't think you should need a permit to carry - per the 2A. However, I am not opposed to having an optional permitting system that you can present to the cops if you are stopped as a notice that 1) you are armed and 2) you have passed a background check. This is not a get out of jail free card, but if it allows for a more easy stop, I would pay that fee.

    I am not in favor of a permitting system that registers or records the guns you own, but one that can put the cop at ease and make the stop go more smoothly, I am OK with that as long as it is optional.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff F View Post
    Here in Wyoming the only real effect of the new law is that citizens of WY who want to carry concealed in the state can do so without needing anyones permission. It does not affect the current concealed carry licensing procedure in any way. Those of us with permits will still have the same reciprocity under the permitting process that is currently in place and is not going to change with the implemantation of the new law.
    had to correct that for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    I agree with you that there is a benefit from permits in the event of a stop. I don't think, however, it will be in officer safety. If you choose to carry in AZ without a permit (which I believe can still be obtained, it is just not required), you are likely to be subjecting yourself to a bit rougher treatment than if you proffered a permit from the outset. I see this being a public relations nightmare for the cops, but I don't see them treating a non-permitted person any differently than a BG once the presence of a gun is on the table. If you carry without a permit, you are taking one tool to prove or at least strongly indicate that you are a GG.
    AZ permits are still available for those that want to obtain them. In fact, AZ opened up their training requirements and many non-AZ residents are getting the AZ permit for the reciprocity that it offers.

    I think, of the states that now have "constitutional carry", only VT does not offer a state issued permit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Morning Hop - I agree that AZ could be a good laboratory for this analysis, but it is not a closed laboratory. I suspect that we will see non-border related crime go down in AZ, but this may be because the BGs just pack up and go to San Deigo or LA. The BGs can make this move in the name of a safer work environment, however, I don't think the conclusions we will draw from AZ will factor in the reduction in the perp population.

    I agree with you that there is a benefit from permits in the event of a stop. I don't think, however, it will be in officer safety. If you choose to carry in AZ without a permit (which I believe can still be obtained, it is just not required), you are likely to be subjecting yourself to a bit rougher treatment than if you proffered a permit from the outset. I see this being a public relations nightmare for the cops, but I don't see them treating a non-permitted person any differently than a BG once the presence of a gun is on the table. If you carry without a permit, you are taking one tool to prove or at least strongly indicate that you are a GG.
    Don't necessarily disagree or agree. Here we must tell if we have a permit. That probably avoids a lot of "rough" treatment but not always. There is still an officer safety aspect. The permittee has been through a background check, left a set of prints, and passed a written test. Those measures provide a level of officer safety absent when a non-permittee is stopped, even if the non-permittee is legally car carrying as is now allowed here.

    I don't know that your assertion that the BGs are going to flee AZ for San Diego will prove true if the motive for such departures is that good guys carry so the work of BGs is less safe. BGs don't usually have that level of forethought and planning unless they are part of organized groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by past60 View Post
    With so many states now passing laws to allow concealed carry without permits, what will all this do to reciprocity? When I look at the map on Handgunlaw, Vermonters are only allowed to carry in Arizona and that certainly doesn't sound like it makes it possible to travel much outside of one's own state.
    Vermont residents can carry in other states because some states offer non-resident permits with good reciprocity agreements.
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    --"but I find it puzzling that gang members can apparently now carry legally in states that used to require training, background checks, and a permit."

    --not legally if they have any of the existing disqualifications , for example a felony conviction. Otherwise , "gang member" isn't sufficient to keep anybody from a permit now--- --

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    What if the Feds left the various State laws alone, and instead issued a Federal CCW permit? It would be valid in all 50 and territories and preempt State law (like everything else the Feds do). I'd be willing to undergo the same background check a Federal law enforcement officer undergoes and demonstrate shooting ability at a range to get such a permit if I could quite worrying about all the "places off-limits" and patchwork set of rules that I have to master to carry in difference States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rellimpank View Post
    --"but I find it puzzling that gang members can apparently now carry legally in states that used to require training, background checks, and a permit."

    --not legally if they have any of the existing disqualifications , for example a felony conviction. Otherwise , "gang member" isn't sufficient to keep anybody from a permit now--- --
    It should be. Gangs by definition are engaged in illegal activity and the members are engaged in conspiracy to commit crimes. When you belong to a group of conspirators you are violating the law. Here's one example where a little more effort on the background checks (and permitting v car carry or "constitutional carry" would pay off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff F View Post
    Here in Wyoming the only real effect of the new law is that people who want to carry concealed in the state can do so without needing anyones permission. It does not affect the current concealed carry licensing procedure in any way. Those of us with permits will still have the same reciprocity under the permitting process that is currently in place and is not going to change with the implemantation of the new law.
    There is a lot to like about that. What I like the most is that someone who is in danger, or being persued by a stalker of an ex husband/boyfriend/girl friend/<whatever> can buy a carry gun and have some protection immediately. They don't get reciprocity, but they don't need it. They are looking for something better than a useless restraining order for near term survival.

    There are no long term benefits of training that are better for someone in immediate danger for loss of life than having access to a gun if they need it. Long term benefits require long term survival.

    Last year, or maybe the year before, there was a 911 tape by a lady hiding in a closet waiting terrified with a borrowed gun in her hand while an ex of some sort with a violent history broke into the house, broke into the bedroom, opened the closet and grabbed her. She had no escape, the sounds of him coming were plain on the tape. She shot him and survived. Someone loaned her the gun. She didn't have a day of training, she had a gun when she needed it and survived.

    Folks who want reciprocity to work for them have the option to get a permit, take training, etc. I think that's just fine. But nobody should have to go through training to have the right to defend them selves. That's just wrong.

    Training is optional. Survival isn't.

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