No firearms signs carry weight of law in Indiana?

No firearms signs carry weight of law in Indiana?

This is a discussion on No firearms signs carry weight of law in Indiana? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I was just reading the Indiana page on Handgunlaw.us and saw that the site says that in Indiana, the No Firearms signs that businesses post ...

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Thread: No firearms signs carry weight of law in Indiana?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    No firearms signs carry weight of law in Indiana?

    I was just reading the Indiana page on Handgunlaw.us and saw that the site says that in Indiana, the No Firearms signs that businesses post carry the weight of law. I was under the impression that they did not have the force of law here.

    Does anyone know of another good source other than calling the State Police and asking them? In my experience, asking the police about firearms laws is kind of futile since they usually aren't up to date with them and tend to just give what they consider a safe answer. I think I'd just get told not to go into a place that is posted.

    The info I read can be found at the bottom of page 4 of this .pdf:

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/indiana.pdf
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Array youngda9's Avatar
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    They do not carry the weight of law in Indiana. However if asked to leave, you must do so otherwise you may face tresspassing charges...that's all.
    Speak softly, and carry a big stick.

  3. #3
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    I recently switched banks to M&I. On their door they have the "No Firearms" sign. When I went in to talk to the Manager I said I saw your sign, am legally carrying now, and will carry EVERY time I come in. he said I don't think I have to worry about you so just ignore it.

    Best part? I don't have a home safe, and only own two long guns, so I use their safe deposit box to store my weapons. Their second biggest box size will hold 20+ handguns

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array sdprof's Avatar
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    (f) Subsections (a), (b), and (e) do not apply to the following:
    [(1) - (5) snipped, not pertinent here ]
    (6) A:
    (A) person; or
    (B) person's:
    (i) family member;
    (ii) invitee;
    (iii) employee;
    (iv) agent; or
    (v) independent contractor;
    Don't businesses invite the public to enter?

    Law found at: Indiana Code 35-43-2

    In my state (SD), there's a specific statute that if a place is open to the public and one is otherwise legally entitled to enter, that's an affirmative defense against a trespassing charge. I wouldn't push it if asked to leave, but then, it's unlikely any store person will see my concealed weapon.
    ~~~~~
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    I carry always not because I go places trouble is likely, but because trouble has a habit of not staying in its assigned zone.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Array Gary Slider's Avatar
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    Better post the whole law. The section you quoted applies to Railroad property. Complete Law below.
    (f) Subsections (a), (b), and (e) do not apply to the following: (1) A passenger on a train.
    (2) An employee of a railroad carrier while engaged in the performance of official duties.
    (3) A law enforcement officer, firefighter, or emergency response personnel while engaged in the performance of official duties.
    (4) A person going on railroad property in an emergency to rescue a person or animal from harm's way or to remove an object that the person reasonably believes poses an imminent threat to life or limb.
    (5) A person on the station grounds or in the depot of a railroad carrier:
    (A) as a passenger; or
    (B) for the purpose of transacting lawful business.
    (6) A:
    (A) person; or
    (B) person's:
    (i) family member;
    (ii) invitee;
    (iii) employee;
    (iv) agent; or
    (v) independent contractor;
    going on a railroad's right-of-way for the purpose of crossing at a private crossing site approved by the railroad carrier to obtain access to land that the person owns, leases, or operates.

    Handgunlaw.us based its wording on signs on the following law on trespass.
    IC 35-43-2-2
    Criminal trespass; denial of entry; permission to enter; exceptions
    (b) A person has been denied entry under subdivision (a)(1) of this section when the person has been denied entry by means of:
    (1) personal communication, oral or written;
    (2) posting or exhibiting a notice at the main entrance in a manner that is either prescribed by law or likely to come to the attention of the public; or
    (3) a hearing authority or court order under IC 32-30-6, IC 32-30-7, IC 32-30-8, IC 36-7-9, or IC 36-7-36.

    Subdivision (a) 1 is below as mentioned in (b) Above.

    Sec. 2. (a) A person who:
    (1) not having a contractual interest in the property, knowingly or intentionally enters the real property of another person after having been denied entry by the other person or that person's agent;
    Stay Safe,
    Gary Slider

    Co-Owner Handgunlaw.us

    Member Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Thanks Gary. I'm going to have to figure a way out to get a definitive legal answer on this.

    I know in my home state of Tennessee the no firearms signs do have the authority of law. I even know a guy who was arrested for entering a business that was posted while carrying. I just want to understand the laws in Indiana as well as I knew them in Tennessee.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Gary Slider's Avatar
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    It may be tough to get a straight answer. Laws are very difficult to understand. Lawyers write most of them. Then there is case law. I have been thinking of adding signage laws for 2 years and the reason it took me this long to add them is just what we are discussing here. The way I read the law and the way others read the law and then the way the laws are enforced in many cases are three different things. But I have to go with what I think is the most conservative approach as I would hate to get someone arrested. Then in most states it is not in the gun laws and the states that have FAQ's on the gun laws don't or won't answer this question. I have at least 7 states listed on Handgunlaw.us as not enough info available to treat all signs as having force of law till more info is available. Not saying I am correct but from all I can find the signs do have the force of law. I am not an attorney though.
    Stay Safe,
    Gary Slider

    Co-Owner Handgunlaw.us

    Member Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    I completely understand Gary. And really, I have to say thank you for all the work you put into Handgunlaw.us. It is an outstanding resource for all of us.

    By the way, I remember talking to you many times all the way back in the Packing.org days.
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  9. #9
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    as it was explained to me by my legal beagle, a buisness open to the public invites you in and therefore can not have you charged with trespassing for refusing to leave when asked to do so for having a firearm. In indiana it would be considered discrimination. He also added that he would take my case if that happened pro bono and if we won he would only ask for ten percent of the winnings
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    I need the name of your "legal beagle".
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  11. #11
    Member Array paullie's Avatar
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    here in kansas, if we have a question all we need to do is call AG's carry and conceal division, they're really helpful and polite

  12. #12
    Senior Member Array Gun Bunny's Avatar
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    I still think that signage carries no weight or should I say "very little" here. From everything I have seen or read, when someone open carries and are asked to leave (very few times I might add), they leave and end of story. I have yet to see any "case law" on the subject.

    It seems there is a lot of grey area as far as the law goes and you have to remember IN has had the LTCH for a number of decades, which is one reason there is very little signage (a lot of people have one).
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  13. #13
    Senior Member Array Gary Slider's Avatar
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    Gun Bunny is most likely correct. It is a gray area and case law is hard to find on it. Other states have wording similar to IN and you must be told to leave before you are trespassing. But I am between a rock and a hard place on this issue like I knew I would be if I included that info. It is just a very difficult situation and I don't want to put something out there that would get someone arrested. I have people in MI telling me both ways in Michigan. It has the force and law and it doesn't have the force of law. One thing it does is get discussion going and it will take time but we will get it all ironed out in the long run.
    Stay Safe,
    Gary Slider

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    Member Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array dV8r's Avatar
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    I'm in MI and have been told by more than 1 LEO that it "depends". Depends on who is involved, including the property owner, LEO, and Prosecutor. There are few binary answers here, my advise is: (Not that it has any weight.)
    A. Make it a personal decision, just keep it concealed.
    B. When carrying, always be courteous and diligent in staying out of trouble.
    C. When/if tSHtF do what you need to do and worry about the trespassing charges later. (If that is all you get you are lucky, but alive, hopefully.)
    Last edited by dV8r; March 25th, 2011 at 04:03 PM. Reason: SP
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