I need help changing a gun policy at my office!

I need help changing a gun policy at my office!

This is a discussion on I need help changing a gun policy at my office! within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The following policy is in effect at my office: CONCEALED WEAPONS The Texas Legislature enacted the concealed handgun law which allows citizens with a permit ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Timmy Jimmy's Avatar
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    I need help changing a gun policy at my office!

    The following policy is in effect at my office:

    CONCEALED WEAPONS

    The Texas Legislature enacted the concealed handgun law which allows citizens with a permit to carry concealed weapons. There is a provision in that act which permits employers to prohibit carrying of concealed weapons by employees. It is the intent of the association to provide a safe working place for its employees. Accordingly, the power granted in the Concealed Weapon Act to prohibit employees from carrying concealed weapons shall be exercised.

    For purposes of this policy, the association's premises includes the association's headquarters building. It does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage or other parking area. However, concealed weapons may not be carried into the building from any of those excluded areas.
    No association employees shall be permitted to carry concealed weapons onto the premises of the association.

    This policy shall be communicated in writing to all employees and shall be a permanent part of the Personnel Policies & Procedures. Employees who violate this policy shall be subject to reprimand or other appropriate action as provided in the personnel manual for similar violations of association policy.


    Of course now that I have my CHL I want to get the powers to be to remove this from the policy manual or to grant me an exemption from this policy.

    We have 20 employees, and 13 women and 7 men. My title is Vice President of Technology, but it should Vice President Of and other duties as assigned. From moving furniture to killing bugs they call me. When there is a strange guy in the parking lot it is me that goes out and asks him to leave, when the alarm goes of in the middle of the night it is me that the alarm company calls, The panic button under the receptionist's desk rings in my office. So I would think this would be a no brainer, but you all know how Bosses can think different than real people.

    So I am thinking I should write a formal letter to the boss giving him lots of good reasons why he should either change the policy as a whole or give me an exemption.

    I thought you guys and gals might have some really good ideas of what I should put in the letter!

    Thanks In Advance
    Timmy Jimmy

    If it is not in the US Constitution then the Federal Government should not be doing it.

    "Carrying a gun is a social responsibility."


  2. #2
    Member Array Sonic Misfit's Avatar
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    I live in Texas as well. I don't have this policy where I currently work, even my boss is CHL and carries to work. However, where I used to work they had a very restrictive policy and the bulding where they rented space had 30.06 signs prominently displayed at every entrance.

    One thing I found out at the old job was that there were two things working against the CHL. First is the building management from whom the company leased office space. Their lease prevented occupants from having firearms.

    Second is that the company hired a consultant group (who also does work in states that are not a CHL friendly) to put together the HR policies. It is probably also true that to cut costs, they bought a "ready made" package for HR policies.

    I talked to one of the building security guards and he told me that the building management did not even allow them to carry firearms, and this is in downtown Houston!

    If you try to build a case, the next time someone asks you to run off someone who is outside the building. Don't do it yourself, call the police. Tell your boss that you don't feel safe walking out to confront unknowns and that it is better left to the professionals. This could help you start the conversation.

    I have found that trying to get a sitation like this changed will need to be done over time and takes patience. For some people it is like asking them to change their religion.

    Or you could do like I did and find a job that allows you to carry. Which does make for very interesting job interviews while you are looking.

  3. #3
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    Array Scott's Avatar
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    Well it seems to be a smaller office, so you may stand a chance. At my company there is a vague policy and we have a wink & nod agreement.

    Anyway, take the boss shooting. Maybe host an office outing for all who wish to go. Call it "team building" and you will likely get a better response. Good buzz word. It could be a familiarization type event or a specific firearm type event. Be sure there is food and socializing following the shoot. Have reactive targets if allowed at the range. If the group is a good size try to get an NRA instructor/coach or some other certified instructor to do a nice professional presentation. I would do these for the cost of materials (about 35 cents) and a meal.

    From there size up the opportunity to bring the subject up with the boss and HR manager if you have one. Move forward. Remember the easiest thing for them to say is no, because then they don't have to do anything. At that point I wouldn't be the parking lot guy or the alarm guy. Part of the wink & nod at my office was I was the guy who showed up for the alarm. I brought my shepard husky mix and a 357 magnum. I made no bones about telling our local HR manager this and she said that was fine.
    Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
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    Ugh!!

    Never ceases to amaze me.

    How on earth does it make it safer? If someone is going to shoot up the office, they are hardly going to be foiled in their plans by an HR policy.

    'Yeah, I'd go in there and shoot the lot of them, but it's against policy to take a gun into the building, and I don't want to get written up'.

    Not a thought that I think has ever run through anyones mind or ever will.

    At least they let you keep it your car, so thats a step in the right direction. It leads me to believe they are likely to be more receptive to a policy change.

    And I would not want an 'exception', I would want the policy removed altogether. That's just singling you out as a CHL and discretion is key.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Array BlueLion's Avatar
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    In my opinion I would not run the risk of people knowing that I carry and I would just follow the policy. I can't carry at my job, but I pack a knife though.
    Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

  6. #6
    Distinguished Member Array AKsrule's Avatar
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    let's look at this logically.

    1. Liability - Is the business Privately or Publicly owned?
    What kind of Insurance does the business have?
    This determines who you have to deal with - and what rules apply.

    2. Are the premises (buidings and grounds ) Secured?

    Fences , secure doors , and a reception area can remove a lot of
    Managements concerns about bad things happening.

    3. Responsible Employees.

    Is the workforce Stable?
    Do employees come and go , and is there more than the fair Share
    of YAHOO's

    If the average Employees are allowed to give Input on working
    conditions , then you should gather the opinions of your co-workers
    and get it on the Agenda at the next Management meeting.
    -------
    -SIG , it's What's for Dinner-

    know your rights!
    http://www.handgunlaw.us

    "If I walk in the woods, I feel much more comfortable carrying a gun. What if you meet a bear in the woods that's going to attack you? You shoot it."
    {Bernhard Goetz}

  7. #7
    Member Array CraigJS's Avatar
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    If you do bring it up or write a letter also explain any and all training you've had, length of time you've been a shooter, and the back round checks ect. that have been done on you to get your CCW permit. Ask if any other "training" would help to swing in your favor.. Cost? 50/50 split, company pays? Possible tax deduction?, Insurance? Set rules as to when you could act as the go to guy for "security" (unknows in lot ect.). Explain the rules that YOU have to go by being a CCW holder. If that fails, there's not much you can do.. I wouldn't be the company "cop" with out these benifits.
    As to people knowing, so what, your not the only person in Texas with a CCW permit.
    Be Safe, CraigJS

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array Old Chief's Avatar
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    it sounds like a new job is in order.

  9. #9
    Member Array cpmiv's Avatar
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    Have they given reason as to why this policy was chosen? Was it just a cut and paste (possibly the entire policy manual) from something they saw? If so you might want to look closer at some of the other policies and if they are restrictive in any way shape or form. Then offer changes including allowing CCW at the office. Though as noted above if the office space is owned by a 3rd party that might be the problem.
    There are over 550 million firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is: How do we arm the other 11? (Yuri Orlov [Nicolas Cage] Lord of War)

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array Ride4TheBrand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy Jimmy
    [B]There is a provision in that act which permits employers to prohibit carrying of concealed weapons by employees.
    In Texas, the only "provision" which would legally bar you from carrying your weapon (aside from those places specifically codified in Texas law) is the 30.06 sign. If your employer has this sign posted, then yes, it is illegal for you to carry on the premises.

    If your employer does not, then it is legal and you are within your rights to carry. However, as a condition of your continued employment, it appears to be policy. You want the job? They set the rules.

    Still, education and information is the key in overturning this type of policy, and working in an environment with few employees would make the task easier. Give them the facts of the requirements you had to meet (both state and federal) in order to be licensed and make them aware that by not allowing you to defend yourself should the need arise, the liability and responsibility arising from such an incident would fall solely on their shoulders, and would have to be defended in a court of law.

    ~ pretty it up as you deem necessary ~
    "We must remember that one man is much
    the same as another, and that he is best
    who is trained in the severest school."
    ~Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War

  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array AutoFan's Avatar
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    I agree with the sentiments above. First, try education. If that fails, stop risking yourself when "there is a strange guy in the parking lot". Politely tell your co-workers/boss to call the cops (have the number on a sticky to hand to them). When the inevitable question comes up, hand them a highlighted copy of the policy and politely tell them you don't feel safe doing those types of things under this policy. Calmly let the receptionist know that when that panic button is pushed, you are calling the cops and hiding under your desk until they come, because of the policy. And send a formal letter to your boss, the head of HR and whoever else could influence a change to this policy that the company is now legally responsible for your personal safety from any grevious assault while at work due to this policy, since you can no longer carry from your car to work.

    If all that fails, definitely look for a new job. And when you find it, let your now ex-employers know exactly why you left.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array PatrioticRick's Avatar
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    Give him a copy of this post with our comments and see what he says.
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    USN 78-82/USAF 82-93 Medically Retired
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  13. #13
    Senior Member Array Timmy Jimmy's Avatar
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    Thank you to everyone that gave me their views. I have come up with the following letter, let me know if you have any other suggestions and if you think I should add or delete any of what I have, and thanks again:

    RE: Request for a change of or exemption from Personnel Policy

    Dear,

    IBAT has a section in the personnel policy manual titled CONCEALED WEAPONS. Part of that section states “It is the intent of the association to provide a safe working place for its employees. Accordingly, the power granted in the Concealed Weapon Act to prohibit employees from carrying concealed weapons shall be exercised.” I believe this section should be removed from the policy manual.

    If an employee of IBAT wants to take it upon them self to go through the process of getting a CHL (Concealed Handgun License) so that they can protect themselves, their family, their coworkers and the general public at large from criminals, that should be looked upon as an asset to IBAT.

    As you may be aware the process an applicant must go through to be granted a CHL is a somewhat lengthy process. An applicant must take a class of a minimum of 10 hours on a number of subjects to include, Texas laws, the use of deadly force, communication, and pass a test on the class. Additionally an applicant must get a qualifying score on a live fire test. After the applicant has taken the class and passed the test then the application along with fingerprints is sent to DPS (Department of Public Safety) and the FBI Federal Bureau of Investigation) for an extensive background check. A CHL will not be granted if the applicant has anything in their history or background that would bring a shadow on their character.

    For the above reasons I believe this section should be removed from the policy manual. If you do not agree that the CONCEALED WEAPONS policy should be removed then I request a formal exemption from that policy. I know you are aware that I am personally called upon for a lot of things at IBAT besides fixing computers. The panic alarm under the receptionist desk rings straight in to my office, if there is a strange person in the parking lot it is me most of the employees call to check it out, when the alarm goes off in the middle of the night I am the first IBAT employee that is called.

    The Texas Department of Public Safety issued me a CHL on July 20, 2006. The handgun I carry is a Kimber Ultra CDP which is equipped with a number of safety features, to include a thumb catch, a beaver grip safety, and a special firing pin safety. The CDP model is specifically designed for concealed carry and I carry it in a IWB holster that allows my shirt to be tucked in and makes the gun almost impossible to detect. As you know I was in the Army for over 20 years and have had years of training with weapons and I am pretty well versed in all safety procedures. So safety is not a problem.

    I have enclosed a copy of my training certificate from my March CHL Course and a copy of my CHL itself.

    Sincerely,
    TJ Scott
    Vice President Technology
    IBAT

    So what do you guys and gals think??
    Timmy Jimmy

    If it is not in the US Constitution then the Federal Government should not be doing it.

    "Carrying a gun is a social responsibility."

  14. #14
    Member Array Lumberjack98's Avatar
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    Overall a good letter. I do not know the people that will be receiving the letter, so I'll have to assume that the tone is appropriate.

    I would add that you are not the police and should not be called upon to perform police duties (checking out a strange person in the parking lot, responding to an alarm in the middle of the night).

    Below is your letter with my thoughts/suggestions in bold and underlined.

    Good luck!

    Dear,

    IBAT has a section in the personnel policy manual titled CONCEALED WEAPONS. Part of that section states “It is the intent of the association to provide a safe working place for its employees. Accordingly, the power granted in the Concealed Weapon Act to prohibit employees from carrying concealed weapons shall be exercised.” I believe this section should be removed from the policy manual.

    If an employee of IBAT wants to take it upon them self to go through the process of getting a CHL (Concealed Handgun License) so that they can protect themselves, their family, their coworkers and the general public at large from criminals, that should be looked upon as an asset to IBAT. I'm not sure that you want to say that having a CHL is for protecting coworkers and the general public. This makes it sound like you are acting as a police officer

    As you may be aware the process an applicant must go through to be granted a CHL is a somewhat lengthy process. An applicant must take a class of a minimum of 10 hours on a number of subjects to include, Texas laws, the use of deadly force, communication, and pass a test on the class. Additionally an applicant must get a qualifying score on a live fire test. After the applicant has taken the class and passed the test then the application along with fingerprints is sent to DPS (Department of Public Safety) and the FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation) for an extensive background check. A CHL will not be granted if the applicant has anything in their history or background that would bring a shadow on their character.

    For the above reasons I believe this section should be removed from the policy manual. If you do not agree that the CONCEALED WEAPONS policy should be removed then I request a formal exemption from that policy. I know you are aware that I am personally called upon for a lot of things at IBAT besides fixing computers. The panic alarm under the receptionist desk rings straight in to my office, if there is a strange person in the parking lot it is me most of the employees call to check it out, when the alarm goes off in the middle of the night I am the first IBAT employee that is called.

    The Texas Department of Public Safety issued me a CHL on July 20, 2006. The handgun I carry is a Kimber Ultra CDP which is equipped with a number of safety features, to include a thumb safetycatch delete catch, a beavertail grip safety, and a specialdelete special firing pin safety. The CDP model is specifically designed for concealed carry and I carry it in a IWB (Inside the Waist Band) holster that allows my shirt to be tucked in and makes the gun almost impossible to detect. As you know I was in the Army for over 20 years and have had years of training with weapons and I am pretty well versed in all safety procedures. So safety is not a problem. Safety is always a problem and I don't think that you would want this last sentence in here if for some reason you had to explain it to an attorney or jury.

    I have enclosed a copy of my training certificate from my March CHL Course and a copy of my CHL itself.
    XD9 Service
    Bersa 380 Thunder
    Taurus 605
    ...a few others

    Texas XD Practical Shooters Association

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array Ride4TheBrand's Avatar
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    I doubt that I would offer them copies of my CHL. Who knows where it might end up?

    Also .. I would have them show me "the power granted in the Concealed Weapon Act to prohibit employees from carrying concealed weapons". As stated earlier, if there is no 30.06 sign, there is no "power"
    "We must remember that one man is much
    the same as another, and that he is best
    who is trained in the severest school."
    ~Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War

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