Practice Practice Practice

This is a discussion on Practice Practice Practice within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I just read a somewhat disturbing article in Guns and Weapons For Law Enforcement. Short version: In the hands of police, who in theory are ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Gaius's Avatar
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    Practice Practice Practice

    I just read a somewhat disturbing article in Guns and Weapons For Law Enforcement. Short version: In the hands of police, who in theory are professionally trained and practice the use of their weapons, in actual shootouts, at very close ranges (less than 21 feet) the "hit rate" by the officers was 20%. Or, if you will, they missed their target 80% of the time. All of the discussion we have about "stopping power" and the best/worst calibers for defense kind of pale in light of this stat. What's the concept. Five good quick misses with a great caliber from a high capacity magazine don't make up for one hit. Practice, practice, practice.
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    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    I don't think the average person realizes how quickly everything goes south under the stress of a real life situation.
    Last edited by JD; April 7th, 2011 at 03:53 PM. Reason: PM sent.

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    Senior Member Array Gaius's Avatar
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    Absolutely true. I heard one combat instructor say that if you are shooting a six inch group at 21 feet at the range, and if you actually find yourself having to use the same weapon in a real defense situation, multiply group size by at least three. Thus, a six inch group, (obviously not so great, but see what most are shooting the next time you are at the range) turns into a 18 inch group, if we can even use the word group. A foot and a half spread will in most cases be a clear miss.
    Best way to win a gun fight? "That's easy, don't show up."
    --Wyatt Earp

    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything."
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    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    In reality, there aren't as many "practiced" police officers as one would believe. Most only shoot enough to retain their firearm qualification. In most cases that is far less than the average shooter that posts in forums like these.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    In reality, there aren't as many "practiced" police officers as one would believe. Most only shoot enough to retain their firearm qualification. In most cases that is far less than the average shooter that posts in forums like these.
    +1.

    Another factor is how you train. Most people (including police) just shoot for good groups from a normal stance. In a gunfight people are flopping and moving while shooting. It's a whole new level of shooting that can't really be practiced unless you are using paint/simunition.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    +1.

    Another factor is how you train. Most people (including police) just shoot for good groups from a normal stance. In a gunfight people are flopping and moving while shooting. It's a whole new level of shooting that can't really be practiced unless you are using paint/simunition.
    Thats why we train the way are bodies will react under critical stress. I think some depts. could use some training from Rob Pincus and Magpul. Trox4 is so right. Our local dept shoots once every six months, were as I train twice a week live ammo, and 4 times a week dry fire and airsoft. Now we know why they perform the way the do.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Senior Member Array TJK68's Avatar
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    I agree we all should train every chance one gets, but it is a whole different ball game when the target is shooting back. This, God forbid, I hope I never find out about.
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    Member Array GrandBob's Avatar
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    Shooting at a stationary target that dont move or shoot back is a whole lot different than shooting at someone that wants you dead.

    I have seen many great shooters do not so well when doing force on force training with Simunitions.

    When the rules go out the window and you are all of a sudden shooting to "survive", itty bitty groups all of a sudden become worthless.

    Its not the practice that makes you good...its HOW you practice that makes the difference.

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrandBob View Post
    Shooting at a stationary target that dont move or shoot back is a whole lot different than shooting at someone that wants you dead.

    I have seen many great shooters do not so well when doing force on force training with Simunitions.

    When the rules go out the window and you are all of a sudden shooting to "survive", itty bitty groups all of a sudden become worthless.

    Its not the practice that makes you good...its HOW you practice that makes the difference.
    That why we practice FOF....It makes all the difference.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJK68 View Post
    I agree we all should train every chance one gets, but it is a whole different ball game when the target is shooting back. This, God forbid, I hope I never find out about.
    This says it all, until you've been on the wrong end of a gun fight you have not experienced stress!
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    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    It reminds me of something Mike Tyson said about his opponents when he was at the height of his game, "Everyone has a plan until they get hit in the face." When the crap hits the fan, stuff is happening in split seconds, people are on the move, and shooting back...it's something that is difficult to truly train for. Instincts drive actions and reactions at that point.
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    Member Array Bill Lindsay's Avatar
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    Most youngeer officers are not gun people. That is they did grow up hunting or shooting .22 etc. Couple that with the attitude of " if they want me learn something they would send/pay me to do it.

    As others have said here, force on force shows what works and what does not. Suarez international has been proving this for several years now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    In reality, there aren't as many "practiced" police officers as one would believe. Most only shoot enough to retain their firearm qualification. In most cases that is far less than the average shooter that posts in forums like these.
    This is a completely accurate statement. I was a LEO for a short time before injury forced me to change careers. I was always a firearms enthusiast but I was shocked at the number of my fellow LEO's who weren't interested in them at all beyond shooting and qualifying every year. Many only fired their weapon for qualification. A few didn't know how to maintain their handgun or even how to take it down for cleaning. Our department armorer told me of one officer who brought his duty rig in because he couldn't get the gun out of the holster at all. The armorer found that this was because the gun was effectively "glued" into the holster after having had some type of sticky drink spilled on it at some point in the past. The officer didn't even remember hopw long ago that had happened. (This was a fairly small police force, I'm not sure you could have gotten away with this in a large city police force.)

    I have read articles that report that the percentage of hits by armed citizens who have a carry permit are greater than most uniformed police officers mainly because the citizens who go to the trouble to get a permit, most of the time are gun enthusiasts and do tend to fire many more rounds in practice sessions per year than the average police officer.
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    Senior Member Array ntkb's Avatar
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    According to what I have seen on FBI and other reports the police shoot the wrong person 11% of the time including other officers and bystanders.

    On the other hand we silly civilians only shoot the wrong person 2% of the time while keeping in mind the public shoots way more people than the police do.

    Part of the bad numbers for the police can be attributed to the officer showing up on seen and not being sure who the bad guy is. The citizen rarely has that to deal with.

    Oh don’t forget that one out of four firings on seen is unintentional.

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    Member Array Rugerguy's Avatar
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    These stories are amazing!! I always used to look at a leo and assume he was a super marksman.

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