Curious about permitless carry

This is a discussion on Curious about permitless carry within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I appreciate and understand most people's stance on this. As I and others have mentioned... that permit doesn't make you a good guy. And maybe ...

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Thread: Curious about permitless carry

  1. #16
    Member Array brobar's Avatar
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    I appreciate and understand most people's stance on this.

    As I and others have mentioned... that permit doesn't make you a good guy. And maybe stating it as having the permit is in your favor is misleading or wrong. I've just always looked at it as one possible degree of separation between me and the bad guy. If I ever have to defend myself against an armed attacker I always hoped that one thing I had going for me and one thing they had going against them was I was "legally" carrying and they were "illegally" carrying because hopefully they didn't go through the process and jumped through the hoops that I did to become legal. Take away the permit and I just feel like I got knocked back down to their level a bit or maybe a better way to word it is they just got bumped up to my level. Where it was illegal for them to carry before... it is now legal. That is one less degree of separation between me and the other guy with the gun. Since a permit is hypothetically no longer required... it just put that bad guy or attacker on a level playing field with me because he is now just as legal to carry as I am and he didn't have to lift a finger to become legal. I know that is the fine line we are walking there... the difference between what is legal and what is a right... and I guess that bad guy has every right to carry just as I do... but that was one of the reasons (or I guess the main reason) that I didn't mind going through the permit process. If they aren't going to go through the process and that gives me a slight leg up because I am willing to go through the process... then I see that as a small inconvenience and small price to pay. Others will see it as an enormous price to pay because they see it as paying for their right. I don't see it as paying for my right (even though technically I am)... I just see it as paying a price to introduce a small degree of separation and trying to make the playing field a little less even... 'cause I don't want to be on the same equal level as a bad guy or attacker... I want every possible advantage I can get even if I have to pay for that advantage.

    Thanks for the comments though. I understand completely where everyone is coming from. I was just curious where most people stood and I'm getting a pretty good picture of that.

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  3. #17
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    So if you have money you can be "in" but if you don't then you are at a different level..... sounds like the class issue throughout history... judging people by their income level and what they can afford instead of ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL

  4. #18
    Member Array brobar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    So if you have money you can be "in" but if you don't then you are at a different level
    As it is thankfully with many things in life

    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL
    Thank god we don't stay that way. It is through our actions from birth that differentiate our equality. I don't want to be financial equals with everybody else. I don't want to be intellectual equals with everybody else. And when it comes to owning and carrying a firearm I would prefer not to be on equal ground with an armed attacker... I would prefer to have a leg up on that guy or gal.

    Just because I prefer it doesn't mean I will get it though... but such is life.

    But *money* isn't the issue or intent for the post. Let's throw money out of the equation... permits are free now (hypothetically)! Now is there any advantage at all to having a permit and some degree of separation between you and an attacker who was not following the law by carrying without a permit... or is that advantage really just a farce and bad guys were on equal ground anyways even though they weren't obeying the law and we were?

  5. #19
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brobar View Post
    As it is thankfully with many things in life



    Thank god we don't stay that way. It is through our actions from birth that differentiate our equality. I don't want to be financial equals with everybody else. I don't want to be intellectual equals with everybody else. And when it comes to owning and carrying a firearm I would prefer not to be on equal ground with an armed attacker... I would prefer to have a leg up on that guy or gal.

    Just because I prefer it doesn't mean I will get it though... but such is life.

    You missed the whole point about the Bill of Rights and the 2d Amendment..... most people in this country do. That is why we are where we are at today, getting away from the things that we were founded on.

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    Most laws are intended to keep dunderheads from doing something stupid.
    You mean like driving at 65 mph instead of the vastly stupider 66 mph?
    Or having a knife with a blade that's 2-3/4 inches long instead of the stupider 3 inches?
    Or having a magazine limited to 10 rounds instead of the stupider 11 or 12 or 20?

    Not picking on you, just highlighting how arbitrary and ridiculous some laws are.
    Smitty
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  7. #21
    Senior Member Array Adkjoe's Avatar
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    I live in VT. There has never been a permit system. I'm willing to bet 80% of people Don't carry a gun into public. I will also bet that 90%+ have a gun in there home though. Most people I encounter and happen to get into a firearm conversation with don't even know that you can carry without a permit in Vermont. These are not factual stats just my opinion on my encounters and years of living in a permit less state. The majority of people are clueless about there states gun laws.

    With that said the majority of people I encounter have no problems with people carrying guns without a permit. Vermont averages about 1-2 murders a year. As has been stated many many times, gun laws only affect the good guys. It's not the wild East, nobody is getting shot over parking spaces etc... It works here and it always has. Most people around here grew up on farms shooting rats and whatever else since they were kids the majority respect firearms. I can understand how it it wouldn't work in a place with big cities etc... but the largest city in vermont has less than 40k people. The large majority of native Vermonters have had gun exposure since they were young, shot in there back yard etc... it's not a big deal here and I will go as far as saying guns are just a part of life in this corner of the country. Even the most liberal city dweller has a at least a .22 in the closet from when they were a kid.

    Permit-less carry probably won't work everywhere but like I said it works here given the type of people and where they come from.
    Vermont does not issue Permit/Licenses to Carry a Concealed firearm. Vermont allows anyone
    who can legally own a firearm to carry it concealed without a permit of any kind.

  8. #22
    Member Array brobar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adkjoe View Post
    I live in VT.
    That's a beautiful state! My wife and I were there a few years back. We stayed in Burlington for a few days before heading over to Lake Placid for an Ironman race and on up to Toronto, down to Niagra Falls & Buffalo and then on in to NYC for a week. Beautiful country up that way. We are hoping to make that trip again one of these years... but maybe leave out the stay in Buffalo. hehe No offense to any of you Buffalo natives... I had my first beef on weck there and the Anchor Bar was great. =)

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    The older I get, the less my Permit is a badge of honor and more of a thorn in my side. It irritates me to no end that I need to prove to The State that I should be ALLOWED to exercise a friggin right enumerated in the US Constitution! That is not right. If you ask me, we, the good guys, should need no permit. But those who have been proven to be the bad guys should need a permit to walk around in society. Perhaps some type of mark that distinguishes them.
    Think about this...... Those that wrote and signed the Constitution were guilty of treason, by todays standards certainly a Felony.




    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    Free men should not need a permit to exercise a right.
    We are all free men!!!!!!

  10. #24
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SWSigma40VE View Post
    Think about this...... Those that wrote and signed the Constitution were guilty of treason, by todays standards certainly a Felony.

    We are all free men!!!!!!
    Really? Don't pay your property taxes for a few years and get back to us on if you get to keep your property or if you get evicted and what you own gets taken by the government.

  11. #25
    Member Array Harleycolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adkjoe View Post
    I live in VT. There has never been a permit system. I'm willing to bet 80% of people Don't carry a gun into public. I will also bet that 90%+ have a gun in there home though. Most people I encounter and happen to get into a firearm conversation with don't even know that you can carry without a permit in Vermont. These are not factual stats just my opinion on my encounters and years of living in a permit less state. The majority of people are clueless about there states gun laws.

    With that said the majority of people I encounter have no problems with people carrying guns without a permit. Vermont averages about 1-2 murders a year. As has been stated many many times, gun laws only affect the good guys. It's not the wild East, nobody is getting shot over parking spaces etc... It works here and it always has. Most people around here grew up on farms shooting rats and whatever else since they were kids the majority respect firearms. I can understand how it it wouldn't work in a place with big cities etc... but the largest city in vermont has less than 40k people. The large majority of native Vermonters have had gun exposure since they were young, shot in there back yard etc... it's not a big deal here and I will go as far as saying guns are just a part of life in this corner of the country. Even the most liberal city dweller has a at least a .22 in the closet from when they were a kid.

    Permit-less carry probably won't work everywhere but like I said it works here given the type of people and where they come from.
    I just moved up here in July and its a whole different feel. Yes it Texas you wondered who was carrying legally but here kinda just expect everyone is. Because of the distance between cities and the rural areas. Yes Burlington on a good day may have 40k people ( which is the largest city in Vermont) and most people grew up around guns of one sort or another. So being able to carry as a right only makes sense!
    Don't get me wrong I love Texas and it will always be my home but to be able to freely do it, just makes one feel FREE. The way it was meant to be. This country was founded on the Bill of Rights and somehow they were forgotten along the way and people want them back! It's just hard if not impossible to get something one has lost.
    Sorry for the long reply but someone needs to step it up.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    The older I get, the less my Permit is a badge of honor and more of a thorn in my side. It irritates me to no end that I need to prove to The State that I should be ALLOWED to exercise a friggin right enumerated in the US Constitution! That is not right. If you ask me, we, the good guys, should need no permit. But those who have been proven to be the bad guys should need a permit to walk around in society. Perhaps some type of mark that distinguishes them.

    Free men should not need a permit to exercise a right.

    Agreed, and you should be able to exercise that right whether you are a 'good' person or a 'bad' person, just like any other rights. Sure, if you commit crimes, that's different (real crimes, crimes that infringe on the rights of others...not crimes like carrying a gun without a permit or smoking a pot cigarette...and no, I dont smoke anything) but what other rights do we have to meet some moral standard to exercise?

    The OP claimed he didnt want to be lumped in with 'the bad guys.'

    I'm not advocating being a 'bad' person but who are we letting decide who's good and bad? (Outside the realm of laws and courts). There are many ways to behave that are deemed bad that are within the law.....being a jerk isnt against the law. A wrongful shoot is a wrongful shoot whether you are a model citizen or a jerk. Jerks drive cars every day and put me in way more danger than handguns ever do.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    You mean like driving at 65 mph instead of the vastly stupider 66 mph?
    Or having a knife with a blade that's 2-3/4 inches long instead of the stupider 3 inches?
    Or having a magazine limited to 10 rounds instead of the stupider 11 or 12 or 20?

    Not picking on you, just highlighting how arbitrary and ridiculous some laws are.
    "Or having a magazine limited to 10 rounds instead of the stupider 11 or 12 or 20?"
    The magazine capacity issue got a lot of attention again when that dunderhead in Arizona let loose at that political rally in front of the supermarket last year.
    This was my point.....someone does something really stupid or careless and a politician looking for a cause decides there should be a law................

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brobar View Post
    Once a state goes permitless for carry... what do you have to seperate you from them (them being the bad guys or those who illegally carried)? In a permitless state do LEO generally treat most encounters with those who have a firearm as they are guilty until otherwise proven innocent? Not that they couldn't do that anyways in a state that requires permits to carry but it just seems that you would have one less thing to separate you from a bg.

    What would Ayoob's video of a traffic stop look like in a permitless state?

    I'm not against permitless carry... actually I'm all for the idea behind it. I'm just not for being lumped in with the common gun-toting bad guy but I'm sure the ideology behind it all outweighs that for many or most.


    .
    This is an interesting question, in an open carry or now permit state, how do most LEO deal with a traffic stop where a gun is visible? They almost have to deal with it somehow, either by taking possession of the gun, having the occupents all step out of the vehicle, or drawing their own just to prevent themselves from being behind on the reaction curve.

  15. #29
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    I grew up in, and currently reside in VT, which does not require a permit to carry. I believe the reason we do not require permits is simply because there has never been enough gun violence to necessitate passing any laws to regulate guns. I agree with everything Adkjoe said. My dad taught me to shoot a gun about the same time he taught me to use a hatchet. If I shot some squirrels off the back porch, it was considered a good way to keep them off the feeders.

    I know a lot of people who are gun enthusiasts, but I have no idea if anyone else carries. It's not really an issue for most people because there is no violence to speak of, there are not really any "bad areas of town". Unlike in other states (like NC) where the cops spend their time busting drug dealers, the only thing to do for the cops around here is pull over people speeding more than 10 mph on country roads. There is no need to inform officers when stopped. I imagine that if it did come up, we would be treated the same as anyone with a permit to carry.
    "In a world of compromise, some don't." -HK

  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner71 View Post
    People put too much stock in permits, licsenses, certificates and the like. If the worst possible thing happens, and you must use your firearm in self-defense, that little card isn't going to do a thing for you. Either it was a rightous shoot, or it wasn't. All the permits in the world serve only one purpose, and that is to limit our freedoms.

    Until there is a day that I can visit every State in the Union without a permit, I will keep mine even if there is Constituional carry in my home State. On that day though, I will gladly cut up, burn and scatter the ashes of that permit to the four winds.
    Well said.

    VT has been permitless/constitutional carry for over 100 years.

    "The fact is that Vermont has allowed concealed carry without a license or other prohibitive regulations since 1903. This is because of a Vermont Supreme Court decision, State v. Rosenthal, 75 Vt. 295, 55 A. 610 (1903) which threw out a city carry license law as a violation of the Vermont's Constitutional right to keep and bear arms."

    VT is clearly the best example proving the worthlessness of permit plastic, training hoops, etc. 108 years of no permits required in VT show they just don't matter. Lott has done the math and come to the same conclusion.

    Fitch
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"Sigmund Freud

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