Alcohol and Situational Awareness- Incompatible? - Page 2

Alcohol and Situational Awareness- Incompatible?

This is a discussion on Alcohol and Situational Awareness- Incompatible? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by romansten9 Yes. The "trick" is that you can choose to have a mindset of maximum self awareness all the time, or you ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by romansten9 View Post
    Yes. The "trick" is that you can choose to have a mindset of maximum self awareness all the time, or you can choose to go out and get drunk, but you can't do both! So choose wisely!
    What about people who have zero self awareness, or are totally clueless when stone cold sober? Look around next time your in Walmart or on a public road at the drivers around you. Even if some people wish to have the mindset and wish to be aware and prepared, some just are going to fall short no matter what they do, or how hard they try.

    I am not saying that someone who is sloppy drunk has put themselves in a good position. However the simple introduction of alcohol doesn't automatically make everyone into a complete imbecile.

    If you choose not to drink or have problems controlling yourself when drinking, you should probably stay away from alcohol especially when you have guns around, oh and stay away from me too. However, if you have enough mental capacity to know what you are capable of and when another one is too much, I have no problem with you drinking a beer, glass of wine or rum and coke, whatever, with a gun on your side. Heck, I will sit and have one with you.

    I find it hard to understand the zero tolerance, one size fits all mentality regardless of the topic. Maybe we should start having IQ tests before one is allowed to own or carry a firearm, because that is what it really comes down to. Stupid people do stupid things, regardless of the surroundings or outside influences.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  2. #17
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    What about people who have zero self awareness, or are totally clueless when stone cold sober? Look around next time your in Walmart or on a public road at the drivers around you. Even if some people wish to have the mindset and wish to be aware and prepared, some just are going to fall short no matter what they do, or how hard they try.

    I am not saying that someone who is sloppy drunk has put themselves in a good position. However the simple introduction of alcohol doesn't automatically make everyone into a complete imbecile.

    If you choose not to drink or have problems controlling yourself when drinking, you should probably stay away from alcohol especially when you have guns around, oh and stay away from me too. However, if you have enough mental capacity to know what you are capable of and when another one is too much, I have no problem with you drinking a beer, glass of wine or rum and coke, whatever, with a gun on your side. Heck, I will sit and have one with you.

    I find it hard to understand the zero tolerance, one size fits all mentality regardless of the topic. Maybe we should start having IQ tests before one is allowed to own or carry a firearm, because that is what it really comes down to. Stupid people do stupid things, regardless of the surroundings or outside influences.
    Very well put. I think Ill go crack a cold one right now.
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  4. #19
    Member Array oldcurmudgeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    What about people who have zero self awareness, or are totally clueless when stone cold sober? Look around next time your in Walmart or on a public road at the drivers around you. Even if some people wish to have the mindset and wish to be aware and prepared, some just are going to fall short no matter what they do, or how hard they try.

    I am not saying that someone who is sloppy drunk has put themselves in a good position. However the simple introduction of alcohol doesn't automatically make everyone into a complete imbecile.

    If you choose not to drink or have problems controlling yourself when drinking, you should probably stay away from alcohol especially when you have guns around, oh and stay away from me too. However, if you have enough mental capacity to know what you are capable of and when another one is too much, I have no problem with you drinking a beer, glass of wine or rum and coke, whatever, with a gun on your side. Heck, I will sit and have one with you.

    I find it hard to understand the zero tolerance, one size fits all mentality regardless of the topic. Maybe we should start having IQ tests before one is allowed to own or carry a firearm, because that is what it really comes down to. Stupid people do stupid things, regardless of the surroundings or outside influences.

    I like your last paragraph.

    There is a big difference between the guy that takes his wife out to dinner at a restaurant and drinks a glass of wine with his dinner and a guy who goes to a bar to drink and watch the ball game for 2 or three hours.

    The latter has no business even driving home. The former has no problem driving home and should have no issues with carrying either.

    The ordinary meal in a nice restaurant lasts an hour or more. One glass with a meal of that amount and length will have zero effect on any normal person.

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array RevolvingMag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldcurmudgeo View Post
    I like your last paragraph.

    There is a big difference between the guy that takes his wife out to dinner at a restaurant and drinks a glass of wine with his dinner and a guy who goes to a bar to drink and watch the ball game for 2 or three hours.

    The latter has no business even driving home. The former has no problem driving home and should have no issues with carrying either.

    The ordinary meal in a nice restaurant lasts an hour or more. One glass with a meal of that amount and length will have zero effect on any normal person.
    Agreed. But, how many of us here are 'normal'??
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  6. #21
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    After getting my carry permit, I have all but quit drinking all together (Never when carrying, and rarely if ever if I'm not now). That's just the decision that I made based on my own opinions on the matter. Whether or not I ever face a situation that requires the use of a firearm, this single side effect of carrying has been more than worth it. YMMV.
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  7. #22
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    We know the law in some states bans drinking while carrying in bars and grills. Some states, like MN (.04), let you get a little buzzed. What counts is what the jury hears when the prosecutor asks you "Did you have ANYTHING to drink?"

    Carry when you're in an emotional state is another consideration. I always disarm Sundays around noon when the Vikings play.
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  8. #23
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    Tennessee made the decision for me. No alcohol consumption if you are carrying. No percents, no "medical tolerance" issues, drink and carry and you won't carry anymore. Keeps it simple. I drink and I carry, but never at the same time. As for it being just a personal choice, ask the mother who has lost a child to a drunk her feeling on that "personal choice " argument. People under the influence don't have a history of making right choices.
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  9. #24
    Member Array red13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Stupid people do stupid things, regardless of the surroundings or outside influences.
    Drunk stupid people do stupider things.
    Anybody can get scared, but you must absolutely not let that affect your behavior. Cowardice kills. -Jeff Cooper

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjh2657 View Post
    Tennessee made the decision for me. No alcohol consumption if you are carrying. No percents, no "medical tolerance" issues, drink and carry and you won't carry anymore. Keeps it simple. I drink and I carry, but never at the same time. As for it being just a personal choice, ask the mother who has lost a child to a drunk her feeling on that "personal choice " argument. People under the influence don't have a history of making right choices.
    Sober people kill more folks than drunk people each year. Do you think the mother of a child killed by a sober person cares that they were sober when the did it?

    I am not advocating going around drunk, simply pointing out the flaws in your argument.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  11. #26
    Senior Member Array canav844's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by romansten9 View Post
    I like it!

    Actually, one reason I asked the question is that I have NEVER seen this topic addressed anywhere. Not on a "self defense" type of TV show, and not on a forum like this. (maybe it was there and I missed it) I'm surprised how many "gun experts" preach: "the mind is your greatest weapon" and then go out and drink after training a group of shooters on the range! So much for practicing what you preach. What are we to believe?

    thanks for your input!
    Read Massad Ayoob's "Concealed Carry" esp page 32 bottom of the page, there's some good advice there. If you search Alcohol, many of the questions you asked have been discussed in various contexts at one point or another. You can't predict the future and you can't eliminate all risk, but you can mitigate it to various degrees, and moderation and discretion are important factors when bearing the responsibility of firearm ownership.

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  12. #27
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    I just skimmed the OP and some of the replies... But I will say this. There are varying degrees to all of this. Intoxication does not necessarily equal zero situational awareness. I'm sure there is some correlation to the amount of lost situational awareness to the level of intoxication. But a person doesn't necessarily lose all their situational awareness after just a few beers or drinks.

    An example to demonstrate this would be that scores of drunk drivers make it home all the time without crashing their car or killing someone. If an intoxicated person had zero situational awareness, none of them who choose to drink and drive would ever make it home without crashing their car.

    Now, this IS NOT an endorsement to drink and carry a gun. Apply some common sense. However, I believe everyone should be accountable for their actions.

    Also, no one forfeits their right to defend them self just because they are intoxicated. It's just a matter of if they are capable of defending them self when intoxicated. And again, to what degree of intoxication.
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  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Probably been said but, IMO, the arguments for drinking and driving are the same for CC--the only question is really putting a "number" (ie .08) to the standard. Put another way, irregardless of situational awareness and lack thereof, IF YOU ARE CONSIDERED DRUNK BY SOME STANDARD OF THE LAW AND YOU ARE CC AND YOU SHOOT SOMEONE---GOODBYE, GOOD LUCK, SEE YOU IN 10 YEARS (THAT IS IF YOU HAVE NOT KILLED SOMEONE), AND I HOPE THE OTHER PARTY IN YOUR DRUNKEN ACTIVITY WILL ENJOY YOUR HOME AND ALL YOUR TOYS.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Sober people kill more folks than drunk people each year. Do you think the mother of a child killed by a sober person cares that they were sober when the did it?

    I am not advocating going around drunk, simply pointing out the flaws in your argument.
    Your logic is sound. The point is that it would not appear so (even though, it again is sound) to the mother involved. Sober people do not use the argument "I am not responsible because I was sober" but drunk drivers (or their lawyers) invariably use the counter agrument, "I was drunk, I couldn't help it. "

    Yes, the mother would care that the driver was drinking. Forget statistics, live long enough and you will encounter these mothers. I have known far too many (some fellow teachers and some relatives), and they all cared that the driver had been drinking.


    Having an accident because of drowsiness or road conditions are accidents occuring because of bad choices also (you could stay home) but they do occur due to natural causes. Drinking is a man made choice and self inflicted, therefore harder to accept.

    I still stand by my point, although it is based on the mothers' perception and not actual; statistics of total accidents vs those caused by drinkers.
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  15. #30
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    I haven't ever been a regularly heavy drinker, but I will have a beer with dinner every other night, or a glass of wine. That is in my own home, and I don't disarm to do so. I'm also not getting buzzed from that with-dinner drink.

    I'd say that a lot of habitual drinkers, even alcoholics, are still quite sharp and capable of defending themselves while drinking. The lightweight amatures and weekend warriors are the dangerous ones, by far. The big party weekends are not dangerous because the regulars are out drinking; they are dangerous because people who don't have a tolerance built up, and are looking to just go nuts are out there drinking with reckless abandon.

    That being said, I don't think most people are capable of rational decision making sans alcohol. The laws are at times just a bad attempt at saving us from ourselves, but this one makes some sense to me.

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