Alcohol and Situational Awareness- Incompatible? - Page 7

Alcohol and Situational Awareness- Incompatible?

This is a discussion on Alcohol and Situational Awareness- Incompatible? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Alcohol and Situational Awareness- Incompatible? Are there people out there that really don't understand this? Seriously? Yes, drinking effects your SA just as it does ...

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  1. #91
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Alcohol and Situational Awareness- Incompatible?
    Are there people out there that really don't understand this? Seriously? Yes, drinking effects your SA just as it does with every other aspect of your life, alcohol diminishes your SA.
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  2. #92
    Member Array romansten9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    Dude,

    I think we all get your point. Based on reading your posts, you believe all the world's people fall into two classes: the sober and the drunk.

    You say that a guy at the range talks about SA, then goes and gets "plastered". Above you are basically saying if you even touch alcohol , you have a"drinking problem." I saw no one on here claiming that alcohol isn't a central nervous system depressant, or that it doesn't affect your SA, motor skills, etc. I saw no one posting that they drive drunk and haven't killed anyone yet.

    I am sure you are very proud of yourself for not drinking, but it's getting more than a little tiring watching you beat your strawman argument into dust.

    If you don't like the topic, or my arguments, then why be here? I haven't attacked anyone for their decision to drink, I haven't been rude about it, so I'm not sure why you are jumping on my back about it? Can't we get along here?

    And no, I don't claim that everyone that simply "touches alcohol" has a drinking problem. My dad was an alcoholic as long as I knew him, and I have studied the topic of alcoholism thoroughly to understand it better. My dad had a real problem up until he was killed by a drunk driver when I was 17. So, alcohol had destroyed his life long before it ultimately ended his life. Now, you would think that I never touched the stuff after that, but I admit that I made the STUPID decision to try it for myself. I was simply trying to fit into the American culture that seems to say that you are a total loser unless you get drunk like the rest, or at least keep your mouth shut about others stupid decision to drink.

    The people I was referring to, the people with a "drinking problem" are often the ones that defend drinking while denying its ill effects. These people will defend the right to drink even though it affects their life. What I'm trying to understand is the person that says that the mind is the best weapon of all, that a person needs to have the ultimate SA all the time, and carry everywhere they go, but at the same time is willing to impair their mind by drinking. What should I believe? Is the mind to be clear or not?

    But even though I have the right and the freedom of speech to get into someone's face about their drinking, I don't. But even though I don't do this, I still have to listen to someone like you claiming that I'm "proud of myself" for not drinking. You see what you did there? You judged me without knowing me, and you labeled me as "proud" simply because I don't engage in "America's favorite hobby" anymore. So, I chose not to drink anymore. Isn't that ok with you? I don't call you names, and you have the right to drink if you want to, without me calling you names for it. I haven't jumped on your back for anything, so please don't hassle me anymore.

    And please give me some answers to my questions if you want to join this topic, it would be much appreciated.

  3. #93
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by romansten9 View Post

    The people I was referring to, the people with a "drinking problem" are often the ones that defend drinking while denying its ill effects. These people will defend the right to drink even though it affects their life. What I'm trying to understand is the person that says that the mind is the best weapon of all, that a person needs to have the ultimate SA all the time, and carry everywhere they go, but at the same time is willing to impair their mind by drinking.
    Please identify such persons, or perhaps you have a reference to such a person. I'd be interested.

    If you're just throwing out hypotheticals, that's OK - you can simply state that. Personally, I have never met such a person, nor have I identified anyone on this board with such an opinion posting here.
    Last edited by MadMac; June 5th, 2011 at 08:49 PM.

  4. #94
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by romansten9 View Post
    I admit that I made the STUPID decision to try it for myself. I was simply trying to fit into the American culture that seems to say that you are a total loser unless you get drunk like the rest, or at least keep your mouth shut about others stupid decision to drink.

    The people I was referring to, the people with a "drinking problem" are often the ones that defend drinking while denying its ill effects. These people will defend the right to drink even though it affects their life. What I'm trying to understand is the person that says that the mind is the best weapon of all, that a person needs to have the ultimate SA all the time, and carry everywhere they go, but at the same time is willing to impair their mind by drinking. What should I believe? Is the mind to be clear or not?

    .
    Where did you grow up that you are considered a total loser if you dont get drunk? Perhaps you are missing that teen/young adult culture applies that peer pressure to lots of things...and that all must be handled responsibly....not necesssarily abstained from, just being responsible.

    I dont consider it stupid to drink. I also dont get drunk...but I do enjoy wines and Belgian ales and am learning to be a connoissuer of scotch and fine tequila. It's about taste and appreciating good things and relaxing and moderation...just like many things in life.

    I also replied about SA and relaxing earlier in the thread. Live your life as you must and as your surroundings dictate.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by romansten9 View Post
    ... I don't claim that everyone that simply "touches alcohol" has a drinking problem. My dad was an alcoholic as long as I knew him, and I have studied the topic of alcoholism thoroughly to understand it better. My dad had a real problem up until he was killed by a drunk driver when I was 17. So, alcohol had destroyed his life long before it ultimately ended his life. Now, you would think that I never touched the stuff after that, but I admit that I made the STUPID decision to try it for myself. I was simply trying to fit into the American culture that seems to say that you are a total loser unless you get drunk like the rest, or at least keep your mouth shut about others stupid decision to drink.

    The people I was referring to, the people with a "drinking problem" are often the ones that defend drinking while denying its ill effects. These people will defend the right to drink even though it affects their life. What I'm trying to understand is the person that says that the mind is the best weapon of all, that a person needs to have the ultimate SA all the time, and carry everywhere they go, but at the same time is willing to impair their mind by drinking. What should I believe? Is the mind to be clear or not?

    But even though I have the right and the freedom of speech to get into someone's face about their drinking, I don't. But even though I don't do this, I still have to listen to someone like you claiming that I'm "proud of myself" for not drinking. You see what you did there? You judged me without knowing me, and you labeled me as "proud" simply because I don't engage in "America's favorite hobby" anymore. ...
    Well, you have made it very clear, with your remarks above, that your real issue is with the consumption of alcoholic beverages. Why do you need to link this issue with firearms at all?

    You clearly have personal demons with regard to drinking and you seem to think all who enjoy an adult beverage from time to time are irresponsible drunkards. IMHO this has nothing to do with guns or whether or not one should carry a gun for self defense.

    Ken
    MadMac likes this.

  6. #96
    Member Array romansten9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyKen View Post
    Well, you have made it very clear, with your remarks above, that your real issue is with the consumption of alcoholic beverages. Why do you need to link this issue with firearms at all?

    You clearly have personal demons with regard to drinking and you seem to think all who enjoy an adult beverage from time to time are irresponsible drunkards. IMHO this has nothing to do with guns or whether or not one should carry a gun for self defense.

    Ken
    I have no problem with the idea of having a drink simply for the taste or for health reasons. I don't consider someone that does this to be a "drunkard" as you claim. I do wish people would be honest about their reasons for drinking. I mean, if alcohol wasn't legal, and wasn't popular, and lets say it could only be injected in someone's veins, and people took an honest look at the fact that it is the drug that causes the most damage of all drugs (by far) would many still drink? How many people can admit that they drink because they like to get high? Who has the courage to stand up and admit that? A few would, I suppose. Like I said, one drink isn't such a big deal, but I do have a problem with the ABUSE of alcohol, for several reasons. I already mentioned that my dad was killed by a drunk driver. I have witnessed hundreds of alcohol related tragedies FIRST HAND as a Paramedic for the past 20+ years. Believe it or not, I have witnessed my Paramedic co-workers drinking IN UNIFORM out in Public. I think that a person that chooses a career to save lives should act as a Professional, especially when in uniform. I hope you see the contrast between a Paramedic that stands against drunk drivers and alcohol related violence, and then drinks heavily himself. (especially in uniform) I hope you can understand where I'm coming from, since I see so much destruction from this drug.

    The reason I posted these questions is because there are a lot of people that are hypocritical on this issue. (as I made very clear) So, my question is how can someone reconcile "the mind is the greatest weapon" and "you need to have maximum SA all the time" with the idea that a person can take a day off from self defense and go out and get drunk (in public or otherwise). Thats the thing I'm trying to understand.

  7. #97
    Member Array romansten9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Where did you grow up that you are considered a total loser if you dont get drunk? Perhaps you are missing that teen/young adult culture applies that peer pressure to lots of things...and that all must be handled responsibly....not necesssarily abstained from, just being responsible.

    I dont consider it stupid to drink. I also dont get drunk...but I do enjoy wines and Belgian ales and am learning to be a connoissuer of scotch and fine tequila. It's about taste and appreciating good things and relaxing and moderation...just like many things in life.

    I also replied about SA and relaxing earlier in the thread. Live your life as you must and as your surroundings dictate.
    Drinking in moderation isn't much of a problem in my mind. I suppose that any amount of alcohol will cause some delays in a person's ability to think and will delay response time, but it may be so slight that it would be difficult to measure. I agree with your thoughts on peer pressure. I think that this pressure is widespread, and not everyone is totally shunned for not drinking, but some are, and to varying degrees. I hope that you understand that your "responsible" mindset (as an adult) is not shared by teens to the same degree. We all know that many teens feel "invincible" and research now proves that teens brains are physically different. The pre-frontal cortex (where reasoning and responsible thinking reside) is not fully developed in teens. They literally can't be as responsible as mature adults for physical reasons. We all know that binge drinking is a real problem among teens. They will actually drink themselves to death, just because fitting in seems more important than much else at that age. I would assume that you will agree that not everyone can be "responsible" with alcohol, and often times, the words "alcohol" and "responsible" can even be an example of an oxymoron.

  8. #98
    New Member Array SixFeetUnder's Avatar
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    I only have a few when I go out for this particular reason. There are two places in my town that I like that are cop friendly, and while I'm not yet a LEO, most of my friends are and that's where they go.

    If I'm drinking with the intention of getting drunk, it's at home or one of their houses.

  9. #99
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by romansten9 View Post
    I have no problem with the idea of having a drink simply for the taste or for health reasons. I don't consider someone that does this to be a "drunkard" as you claim. I do wish people would be honest about their reasons for drinking. I mean, if alcohol wasn't legal, and wasn't popular, and lets say it could only be injected in someone's veins, and people took an honest look at the fact that it is the drug that causes the most damage of all drugs (by far) would many still drink? How many people can admit that they drink because they like to get high? Who has the courage to stand up and admit that? A few would, I suppose. Like I said, one drink isn't such a big deal, but I do have a problem with the ABUSE of alcohol, for several reasons. I already mentioned that my dad was killed by a drunk driver. I have witnessed hundreds of alcohol related tragedies FIRST HAND as a Paramedic for the past 20+ years. Believe it or not, I have witnessed my Paramedic co-workers drinking IN UNIFORM out in Public. I think that a person that chooses a career to save lives should act as a Professional, especially when in uniform. I hope you see the contrast between a Paramedic that stands against drunk drivers and alcohol related violence, and then drinks heavily himself. (especially in uniform) I hope you can understand where I'm coming from, since I see so much destruction from this drug.

    The reason I posted these questions is because there are a lot of people that are hypocritical on this issue. (as I made very clear) So, my question is how can someone reconcile "the mind is the greatest weapon" and "you need to have maximum SA all the time" with the idea that a person can take a day off from self defense and go out and get drunk (in public or otherwise). Thats the thing I'm trying to understand.
    I'll stand up and admit that I drank a few Bud Select 55's last night while I had my gun on, in fact I never considered taking it off. It didn't affect my situational awareness one bit. I even handled ammution when I gave my neighbor 300 rds to go shooting today. He didn't have any cash until Thursday and he wanted to take his dad and brother shooting so I squared him away with some reloads till he got paid. I like the taste of beer, just like humans have for the past several thousand years.

    I can post some research that says that alcohol in moderation actually improves heart health and helps diminish loss of congnative function over the lifetime, so maybe when I am 80 my drinking will give me better situational awareness than someone who has choosen not to drink. I can post other sources that say that Americans take about 80% of the pain medications perscribed world wide. I can post sources that state that talking on your cell phone is more dangerous than driving drunk.

    If you want maximum situational awareness, don't drink, don't smoke, don't have caffine, don't talk on your cell phone/text or do any smart phone functions, don't take any sinus medication, don't take any pain meds, don't listen to the radio, don't watch tv, don't read a book, don't have children or any other people or pets around you, and certainly don't spend any time on the computer. Why because all of those things and many others will detract from your situational awareness. Do you do any of the things that I listed? If so, why? If you want to be at your best you wouldn't would you?

    Just because you have had problems in your family with alcohol or seen others who have problems with it, don't project that on the rest of the world. I have seen problems with folks talking on cell phones whether driving, standing in line a the checkout delaying me, or any other number of places where they do stupid things while on the phone. (anyone remember the lady in the mall walking into a fountain while texting?) Does that mean I don't use a cell phone. Absolutely not. I am however, aware of when I am using it and what I am doing at the same time. No different than alcohol. Anything you do has the ability to lower your situational awareness. Know what you're capable of. Did your CHL instructor go over condition White, Yellow, Orange, Red and Black? If not, I would be glad to send you that section of my lesson plan for my CHL Classes.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  10. #100
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    Pretty sure it's not a smart decision to be a Texas CHL instructor and post in a public forum that you drink and carry at the same time.

    Just sayin'
    - SNA -

    "Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have" -- Ronald Reagan

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirNapsAlot View Post
    Pretty sure it's not a smart decision to be a Texas CHL instructor and post in a public forum that you drink and carry at the same time.

    Just sayin'
    Why is that?

    Ken

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirNapsAlot View Post
    Pretty sure it's not a smart decision to be a Texas CHL instructor and post in a public forum that you drink and carry at the same time.

    Just sayin'
    I am pretty sure you need to learn what the actual laws are in Texas.

    I will give you a little bit of help. A. I wasn't intoxicated, and B. wasn't carrying under subchapter h, Gov Code 411.

    (d) A license holder commits an offense if, while intoxicated, the
    license holder carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H,
    Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is
    concealed.
    (2) "Intoxicated" means:(A) not having the normal use of mental or physical faculties by reason of the introduction of alcohol, a controlled substance, a drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of two or more of those substances, or any other substance into the body; or(B) having an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or more.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
    www.ddchl.com
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  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    I am pretty sure you need to learn what the actual laws are in Texas.
    ...
    (2) "Intoxicated" means:(A) not having the normal use of mental or physical faculties by reason of the introduction of alcohol, a controlled substance, a drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of two or more of those substances, or any other substance into the body; or(B) having an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or more.
    In Nevada that would be a BAC of 0.10 or more.

    Ken

    p.s.: I love Las Vegas!

  14. #104
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    Quote law all you want. That does not tell me your body weight or time you consumed those three beers. It's your license and your PR issue as a business owner so I suppose stating such thing in an open forum is certainly your right.

    Nor does it compel me to think it's a smart decision to carry while consuming alcohol.

    I hear people say "I had a few beers and it doesn't effect my motor skills, reaction time, etc" all the time. We call them drunk drivers.
    - SNA -

    "Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have" -- Ronald Reagan

  15. #105
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Yep, I will quote you the law, because that is what matters, and you can assume what you want about the effects it had on me or the risk to my license, business or anything else you like.

    Do you have any idea what the alcohol content of a Bud 55 is? Oh and if you want to do the math I am just over 200 lbs.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
    www.ddchl.com
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