May 27th, 2011 10:39 AM
Preparedness Discussion Thread For Those Who Carry Unchambered
Just wanted a civil place for those of us who carry without one chambered to have a little discussion about how we practice and prepare in the event we need to draw our weapon.
Please, keep this from being a 'might as well carry a rock' thread.
If you carry with one chambered this thread isn't for you unless you have some helpful input on the topic at hand.
May 27th, 2011 10:45 AM
Carry how you are comfortable. You alone are responsible for your actions
May 27th, 2011 11:02 AM
I'll be interested to see how this goes as I thought long and hard before I decided that I just had to learn to be comfortable carrying one in the pipe when I first started carrying. I totally understand your safety concerns and will be following this thread to see how others are doing it.
Ruger: SR9, SR9C
S&W: M&P Shield 9mm, M&P 15 Sport
Glock: G20 SF
May 27th, 2011 11:23 AM
You are adding one more manipulation with your weapons system. IMO it is a waste of movement and time. To the OP I would like to know what kind of weapon you carry that would make you not want to carry with one in the pipe.
Originally Posted by Thunder71
Don"t let stupid be your skill set....
Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......
May 27th, 2011 11:24 AM
OK a couple of common sense suggestions.
Carry with the best quality magazine in your handgun.
Invest in a slightly "Plus Power" Wolff magazine spring if possible.
That will really keep your top round pressed hard up against the underside of your mag feed lips and your cartridge will be less likely to take a nose dive during the feed.
Make absolutely certain that your carry ammunition cycles in/chambers flawlessly.
Even to the degree of keeping a hardball cartridge as your "first into the chamber" AKA top round in your magazine....since hardball will usually always feed but, HPs can be more prone to "hang up" on the feed especially when the "real world reality" is not ideal & the adrenaline is pumping.
Keep in mind that you will be much more apt to potentially "bobble a feed" in rainy weather, freezing icy cold temps, or in "fight or flight" or in Startle Response while being surprise attacked or tossed down into the mud.
It's far better to have a quickly available "mil hardball" than a bobbled "failure to feed" when your skull is 1.5 seconds away from being "caved in" with a B Ball Bat.
You should also add a rear sight that will allow you to chamber a round in the event that one arm has been taken out of the fight. A larger rear sight with a "flat" surface would be a real help.
> Use NICKEL PLATED carry ammo. It is slicker and harder than brass & it feeds with less friction.
My biggest problem with carrying on an empty chamber is NOT so much that the pistol cannot be quickly and effectively presented in some scenarios...it is that if you are in the unfortunate circumstance of being physically attacked - your support side arm will be extremely occupied and simply not available for cartridge chambering.
If you are carrying a 1911 format handgun and ALWAYS carry every day on an empty chamber and that is the way you always intend to carry then you should still always carry with the hammer cocked back because....you need to make things as easy as possible on yourself in what will likely be less than relaxed or typical range conditions.
So you do not need to be using your SHTF slide-rack to also "fight your mainspring" to cock your hammer.
And finally...practice, practice, & practice.
I'm sure that other members will have more to add.
May 27th, 2011 11:31 AM
Thanks for the suggestions, some good things to consider there. I've done most of my shooting/practice so far in the winter months without gloves, so far so good - but it is MUCH nicer shooting in fair weather!
Again folks, it's not about why we carry chambered or unchambered - it's how we practice unchambered, please don't take this thread down any other path, there's enough of that garbage on all the forums already and I sincerely believe there is a big place for this discussion to be had in a positive light.
For those who carry chambered you might want to follow along since your first round may not fire - you could pick up some tips on getting one in the pipe quicker ;)
May 27th, 2011 11:40 AM
This thread is a great idea as I was afraid to carry with one in the chamber at first. I then "heard" it may be considered pre meditated if I chambered a round and shot a BG. The reasoning was that if I just drew and shot it was instinct. If I chambered a round then fired I was giving a degree of thought to ending someones life. May be considered first degree murder. Whether that is true in Michigan or not I don't know. I just carry loaded and ready to go because of my klutz factor and the less I think the better! It is also one less thing to go wrong in a stressful situation. Just my opinion. Look forward to seeing the different views on this!
" The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Henry Kissenger
May 27th, 2011 11:41 AM
Sorry Thunder your post appeared as I was writing mine above.
" The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." Henry Kissenger
May 27th, 2011 11:42 AM
Hmmm, might want to rethink your decision if that's the reasoning - that really sound scary to me! :)
Originally Posted by borglyn
No worries borglyn!
May 27th, 2011 11:43 AM
Sorry I can't accomidate your wishes in this thread, because I have this weird idea that people are supposed to take as much care in the carrying of a lethal weapon that they excercise in driving a car...
It also means I'm one of those people who believes that if you are more afraid of shooting yourself with your weapon than having it in the highest state of readiness possible, you need training - or you need to ditch the gun.
John Farnam's feelings on the matter from his quips:
9 Feb 10
These comments from the owner/operator of an indoor range:
"An acquaintance came to our Range yesterday evening. He wanted to ask me
some questions about his carry-pistol and then take it to the range and
run several dozen rounds through it. He explained that he had been carrying
it concealed, '... off and on,' for several months, ever since a gruesome
homicide made our local news early last fall. I've encouraged him to get
involved in some professional training, but he has put it off.
Once in a stall, he faced down-range, drew his pistol (SA XD/M, 9mm), and
then pulled back and released the slide, chambering a round. I stopped him
and asked if he had been carrying this pistol, in this condition, on his
way to the Range.
He said, '... Of course!'
I responded, '... and you didn't have a round chambered?'
'Well, I don't carry with a round in the chamber, because I want to be...
safe' ... ad nauseam
I then went through the usual lecture, the one about 'Who promised you your
support-side hand will be available to you at the start of your next
Like so many, he readily acknowledged the unassailable logic of my
argument, but he was '... still not sure'
I then advised him to remove his holster. I took the pistol from him,
unloaded it, replaced it in the box it came in, and strongly advised him to
leave it there until he 'finds the time' to attend professional instruction!
I can only wonder how many other frightened, confused, wilfully-ignorant
people there are, running around like this person, concerned about there
personal safety, yet unwilling to do much more than take timid, abortive
Comment: I'm sure their number is legion, and growing with every edition of
the Evening News!
What follows is opinion:
You're either in the Navy, or you're not!
When a person indicates that he chooses to not carry a gun, because he is
sick, or he just enjoyed a cocktail, or he is on medication, or he has made
the personal choice not to go armed, for reasons that apparently suffice
for him, you'll hear not a peep of argument from my corner. Far be it from
me to dispense unsolicited advice!
However, when an otherwise normal, rational, and able-bodied person
knowingly holsters a modern, autoloading pistol whose chamber is empty, and then
expects to share a car, or dinner-table, with me, he will have to find
someone else with whom to socialize. I want nothing to do with him!
I consider that person unstable and worse than useless. He is intentionally
living in fantasy-land, and being in his presence is therefore contrary to
my best interests. This world has never been sympathetic with the
delusional!I can't count on his skills, nor obviously, his judgment./John
Carry a gun as if you life depends on it.
May 27th, 2011 11:45 AM
I just deleted my response based on Thunder's most recent request.
However Thunder, you greatly limit the value of discussion if you preclude the responses. It's almost like "Tell me only what I want to hear".
'Clinging to my guns and religion
May 27th, 2011 11:46 AM
That's fine, if I want to hear why I should carry chambered there's plenty of reading on that here and elsewhere.
May 27th, 2011 11:48 AM
This was the vintage slide racking holster that was once manufactured by Seldeen.
It sure did work as advertised but, is no longer being made. I only ever got to see one once.
I have always carried with a chambered round so naturally I never bought one.
I was modestly interested in it from a historical leather/holster perspective though...and I almost bought one that I saw in a box of used leather at a local gun shop years ago...it being an innovative and unusual 1911 related holster item.
I should add that while I personally have always carried with a chambered cartridge I have read enough on this forum and on other forums to know that there ARE just enough people "out there" who (for whatever personal reason/reasons) do not carry with a chambered round.
This member has requested that this thread NOT be a flame fest "con" empty chamber carry.
So please respect the wishes of the member no matter if you agree or disagree.
I actually DO think that if some small scale talented leather/Kydex craftsman/holster maker could engineer a really 100% reliable slide cocking OWB holster for say....the uber popular 1911 & various GLOCK handguns - & it concealed the firearm well - that holster maker would likely be able to carve out a nice little "corner the market" niche for himself.
I say that being "open minded" and not wanting one for myself but, realizing that there is a select, untapped, market for a good one & it could be a higher dollar holster for those who really want one. They would be willing to pay good $$$ for one.
For those folks that DO carry "empty chamber" a reliable slide cocking holster WOULD allow the support side arm to block/fend off an attack while enabling the good guy to put his semi-automatic handgun into useful self-defensive service using only the strong side gun/hand/arm.
This would be a GREAT time to add that for folks who DO carry with a chambered round...(myself included) that it should never be done until after a complete function check is performed on any new firearm/pistol purchase or any semi that has had aftermarket custom smithing work done on it.
May 27th, 2011 01:03 PM
It took me a while before I carried one in the chamber. I do carry a DA/SA Cougar 8000 9mm and sometimes with the manual safety on.
This way I feel a little more "safe"? H$#@ Bells I do not know either.
So I guess what the bottom line is I like the ability to have a round in the breach and still have the safety on. The DA/SA Cougar provides this option and opens a couple doors; Carry loaded, Carry locked and loaded, and by having an exposed hammer, I am able manually cock the hammer after releasing the safety, or just pull the trigger( God forbid) DA.
Oh .......I carry loaded and not locked plus 95% of the time.
You did not say what handgun you are carrying. So I think that different gun designs will offer different ways to be or feel safe/er. But whatever pistol you choose to carry practice, Practice, PRactice, and practice drawing. Practice drawing then racking the slide. Just make sure the gun is unloaed and use snapcaps.
Prefect Practice makes Perfect.
Cougar 8000 9mm
S&W 586 4" 357
Winchester Defender 12g
May 27th, 2011 01:40 PM
Here is an interesting FYI addition to this thread that I heard directly from a respected Israeli citizen years ago.
I believe that it is true but, I have no real way to authenticate or verify it.
Since the Israeli GALIL has long been my personal/preferred "rifle of choice" rather than the AR platform - I've come in contact with and communicated with some pretty doggone neat Israeli folks.
Israeli "empty chamber" carry did not begin with the Israeli military.
Many moons ago and during the earliest terror attacks many Israeli citizens did not own personal protection handguns.
They COULD however go in and request a loaner firearm (if and when they felt they had a need to carry one) but they would very likely be given whatever firearm was available to loan out at the time.
Since all of the various, assorted, loaner semi-automatic handguns had differing Manuals Of Arms AKA some had decockers - some not - some sported manual safeties in differing locations on the firearm - and those needed to be snicked OFF & ON SAFE in different directions etc....The first "Israeli Carry" firearms were handed out - fully stoked magazine inserted in the mag well - safety off - chamber empty & instructions were just given to rack the slide - aim/point at the bad guy - and pull the trigger.
Agree or disagree ---- Very simple, basic, operating instructions applicable to all semi-autos.
The method was later adopted by the military for whatever exact reason...I do not know.
That's my story & I'm stickin' to it.
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