Defensive Carry banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Carrying Unchambered - Practices, techniques, tips and tricks.

14K views 104 replies 32 participants last post by  JD 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
OK, lets give this one a fair shake, while I personally do not endorse condition 3 carry, there are those that do. The topic of Condition 1 vs. Condition 3 has been beaten to death time and time again. For those that choose to carry condition 3, they should be able to discuss methods that will enable them to accomplish their desired tasks without the thread turned into a debate on C1 vs. C3, that's called Thread Hi-jacking and we do actually have an infraction for it. If you do not have anything to add related to the topic of this thread: "...your gun is now unchambered, what methods has your training brought you that seem to work the best for chambering a round quickly and successfully?" don't post as it will be removed.

Regards,
JD


Going to go about this a different way in hopes that some useful information can be generated without the chambered vs unchambered argument and antics.

Whether you carry chambered or unchambered doesn't matter - the question is your gun is now unchambered, what methods has your training brought you that seem to work the best for chambering a round quickly and successfully?

I personally practice carrying unchambered so this topic is important to me (and others who choose this method), so instead of bickering about this being a non-preferred method by most, lets discuss the techniques used to chamber a round.

Those who carry with one in the hole will benefit from this discussion in case their loaded round goes 'click' and not 'boom', those who carry without one in the hole will benefit from learning new techniques.

So far I've practiced the following:
Drawing and chambering a round in one fluent motion using my clear hand to grab the slide once 'clearing' my clothes.

Video here for a better representation, it's not me - but closely resembles what I do:
YouTube - ‪Condition 3 Quick-Draw Practice: Glock 26‬‏

I also practice one handed racking using the sole and belt methods, will be adding the 'behind the knee' method soon to see if it works for me.
 
See less See more
#43 ·
If your doing one hand manipulations try some skater tape on the top of the slide right in front of the rear sight. Its nice and abrasive so you can rack the slide on your pants. Just a suggestion.
 
#44 ·
Chevy-SS i ask you to 'jam the grip' when standing, seated, on knees and on your back.
do it fast--as in your life depends on it and tell me where your muzzle is pointing.

you are going to have to work hard at this cause you are forbidden to cover yourself. in fact;
you may not cover anything but what you intend to shoot. i ain't asking for the impossible cause in failour drills your method is vialiable...just needs lots of practice.
getting outside the box can be a life saver in the real world. the more skills you have, the better your chance of survival when things happen other than as you planned for.

2 thumbs up for 1967
 
#47 ·
In shooting encounters people tend to shoot at the muzzle flash and one of the most prevalent injuries is to the hand. If you're injured, it most likely could be to the hand. Being able to rack your slide, one handed, may be a life or death situation.

Using the rear sight on your belt or rear pocket should be your top choice. I've found the typical jeans back pocket lip to be very good for racking a slide. The side of the thigh is my third choice. Using the back pocket or thigh requires putting most of the force into your leg or backside, before a very sharp, hard push downward to rack the slide. It might take a bite out of your flesh, but you'll still be here.
 
#48 ·
The topic of this thread is one of the reasons I prefer DAO in an EDC; most malfunctions are solved by simply pulling the trigger again. I don't have to put much time into one hand racking skills, as they aren't as necessary as they are if you carry a DA/SA or striker action pistol. I still put some time into it, but it isn't a priority.
 
#50 ·
^ I see validity to both sides of that argument - I would also like second-strike capability (but since my carry and main HD pistols do not offer this capability, I've trained otherwise), I can certainly see how it could be beneficial in a time-is-life situation, since you won't have to come off-target. But indeed, there's a definite chance that it could just be a bad round, and that ejecting it for fresh is necessary.

Whatever the case, I do think it's important that one trains with consistency in-mind: that under stress, if one does own a "single-action striker-fired" pistol without second-strike capability as, say, their primary home-defense pistol, that they are familiar with this pistol, and not mistake it for their, say, true-EDC, which may well be a second-strike capable pistol.
 
#54 ·
Ditto exactly what fastk9dad said - a typical DA/SA functions exactly the same as a DAO as far as second strike capabilities. That said, so what? Get rid of the bad round immediately (because you don't KNOW it's a bad round, you just know it didn't go bang - why waste time assuming it was a dud, and assuming that pulling the trigger again will have any effect?) and get back in the fight. "Second strike," IMO, is 99.99% marketing gimmick and .01% (and I'm being generous here) legitimate benefit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TSiWRX
#55 ·
^ I think that perhaps AZ Hawk simply made an error in terminology - I simply read his post, at first, as being "SA/striker-fire."

But that aside - why default to a tap-rack-assess/bang drill, if by big-boy's rules we understand the operation of our firearm - knowing that it has second-strike capabilities - and decline to pull the trigger a second time, if it's already on-target?

How much time is wasted between that second press of the trigger and a tap-rack-assess/bang?

But then again, one could say that at the first sign of malfunction, in trying to visualize what is wrong with the auto-pistol we are already taking it off-target (i.e. in just tilting the gun back a few degrees, so as to visualize slide-battery and chamber condition)...that obviously makes second-strike capabilities much more of a marketing gimmic.

Good point. As a newbie, I definitely hadn't thought that one through. Thank you, OPFOR.
 
#56 ·
The issue isn't quite the act of pulling the trigger, but the decision making processes in between. Average reaction time is what, .25 of a second? that .25 to realize it's a dud, .25 to pull the trigger again, .25 in realizing it didn't work and need to TRB (tap, rack, bang) and perform the TRB..., .5? 1.25 seconds in a 5 second gun fight is a long time.
 
#58 ·
I've (thankfully) run across very few dud rounds in my day. None of them fired after the "second strike" that I tried on them. Not to say that it COULDN'T work, but it hasn't. Ever. I see absolutely no reason not to simply ditch the round (and, in the process, take care of most other problems if it ISN'T a dud) right away. I guess maybe if it's my very, very last round, but then I think the time would be better spent getting the heck out of Dodge... :)
 
#59 ·
Originally Posted by AZ Hawk
The topic of this thread is one of the reasons I prefer DAO in an EDC; most malfunctions are solved by simply pulling the trigger again. I don't have to put much time into one hand racking skills, as they aren't as necessary as they are if you carry a DA/SA or striker action pistol. I still put some time into it, but it isn't a priority.
I would think that the topic of this thread - ideas on getting an unchambered gun into action - renders the DAO, DA/SA, SAO argument moot since it doesn't matter how many times you pull the trigger the empty gun won't fire.

I posted some about our one-handed training for reloads and correcting malfunctions, but when it comes to drawing and getting an unchambered gun charged when you need to consider the time involved and the exposure. Probably the best thing you can practice is movement and use of cover/concealment to buy yourself time to charge the gun. Of course the sound of you racking the slide could very well give your position away rather than intimidate.

Also, some of your wrote about problems with 147gr ammo. Lots of guns have issues feeding hat stuff because of the OAL. If your gun doesn't run reliably with it maybe you should consider trying some of the 124gr or 115gr loads that are out there. You might find that it works better.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MotorCityGun
#64 ·
We've actually done some of the practicing that Mitchell is talking about, going "live" with airsoft against a living, moving, thinking aggressor makes a world of difference. :yup:

Edited to add: TSi just posted our brief little workshop on chambered vs. unchambered, understand that this thread is to stay on topic of methods for getting one in the tube when needed and training related to it. We planned on doing more in that video series, but the Airsoft gun broke and we were unable to continue as planned.

Do not use the video to restart the C1 vs C3 debate again or I'm just going start deleting posts.
 
#65 ·
We've actually done some of the practicing that Mitchell is talking about, going "live" with airsoft against a living, moving, thinking aggressor makes a world of difference. :yup:
Not to nit-pick, but you need to tighten up that exagerated drawstroke with the knife.

Watch as you bring the knife out, it breaks the outlike of you body and forms a seperate line of movement before you get it into an attacking motion against her. Reference your video 0:44 - 0:58 & 1:35 - forward during the slow motion section.

Your attack seems to come out to the side of your weapon hand, low, then into the movement to attack.

Draw it from your waistband, bring it up as if you were going to bring a gun up from appendix carry to high ready and punch it out.

You can effectively "stab with the edge" without having to move your arm very much off of the lines of motion you would use with bringing a gun up to compressed-high ready then out to extension.

You will "slice" time and movement off your attack, while being able to keep movements as consistant as possible from one weapon to another.

Thus, the gun becomes training with a knife, training with a knife becomes training the drawstroke for a gun, and both become an extra rep for a straight punch.

Yeah. I know...freaky, isn't it...
 
#67 ·
So you were stabbing your wife with a rubber kitchen impliment as she shot at you on film, then found fit to post it online for the world to see?

Sir, I commend you. The Superior Court of the State of Connecticut commends you.

You have rendered me speachless in response.


:danceban:
 
#68 ·
....Not much else to do in Central Iowa in November I guess.

On a side note, a good number of people that carried C3 (note past tense) changed their outlook on things after seeing that video (kitchen spatula and all) and rethought their methods and now carry with one in the chamber. It may be crude, and unprofessional (I thought the snow shovel in the background was a nice touch) but it appears to work and reach it's intended audience.

...Now back to our regularly scheduled program....
 
#71 ·
I did see a good video of a self defense strategy last night on YouTube I believe, trying to find it again - but it was related to having to chamber a round during the attack. The video title I remember wasn't related, something like 'you have to see this' (not really that, but just as generic).

Hopefully it's still in my browsing history at home.
 
#74 ·
I agree, would be great to get a group of people together to do this kind of training and take it seriously. Unfortunately most any 'official' training is based off of military or police training, not civilian and therefore also based on carrying with one in the chamber.

I am looking however.
 
#78 ·
So, Massad Ayoob's training through Lethal Force Institute (Now the Massad Ayoob Group) is unsuitable for civilians because...he's taken techniques and drills from his law enforcement carrer as well as incorporated other skills and drills from other trainers who have been in the military?

Chuck Taylor's classes for civilians are unsuitable for civilians because he's been in the military, and teaches civilians the skills he's used in real life to put people in the ground?

Oh, wait...lets look at the Rogers Shooting School...Dam, wait. No. Can't train their...Bill Rogers was an FBI agent. Police training...I forgot.

Al-righty, then.

You seem to want training for civilians, geared ONLY for civilians...

This is not a personal attack, so I ask it in honesty to glean information, "How would you know the difference between training that is geared toward civilians and that which is geared toward the military or law enforcement when you?"

Look, you've said in your previous posts that you are new to this stuff, so really...what makes you so certain you are on the right track?

Have you considered that you don't know what you don't know?
 
#79 ·
OK, I was trying to stay open minded...but then I got to the 2:59 mark where he shoulder rolls AWAY FROM COVER and THEN chambers a cartridge in the wide open. :eek:

With a little refinement, such as not getting all chicken winged after the draw stroke, that could be OK, maybe it was exaggerated for demonstration purposes or whatever...but yeah, that's the Israeli method in a nut-shell.
 
#77 ·
I would suggest that the nature of the activity and the typical distances involved confronting terrorist activities tend to lend more credence to the Israeli method. These activities and typical distances are often considerably different than when confronting criminal activities and therefor for do not relate directly to the confrontation of criminal activities. Apples and oranges, so to speak.
 
#85 ·
OT, but am I the only one who is sick to death of "Israeli" somehow automatically equaling "cooler than you'll ever be?" The Israeli Defense Forces are primarily moderately-trained conscripts. The "Israeli carry" is, by and large, no longer used even by the Israelis. I swear, "Israeli" has become a marketing gimmick for people who want to sound a lot better/cooler than they actually are...

ETA: Mitchel, you beat me to it. And what are the 51st through 58th states?
 
#89 ·
I don't think a link to this site has been posted yet. I only got to watch a few minutes of the unchambered video but it's well done and it looks like he addresses a number of aspects of C3 carry via a series of videos. Hopefully everyone can benefit from them.
Montgomery Alabama - Get Home After, LLC
 
#91 ·
Oh well. Never mind.
 
#92 ·
My dad lost his arm from just below the elbow down in an accident 10 years ago. To make matters worse it was with his strong arm. He has since relearned to do everything with his weak hand and gotten almost as good with it as he was with his strong hand. Anyway, I have seen him rack several different guns with just one hand and he will do it with whatever he has at his disposal at the time. I have seen him do it on his pants leg, across his chest wearing blue jean overalls, boots, on chairs, trees, fence post, etc... You'd be surprised how a person can learn to adapt when you have to. Then there were sometimes he didn't want to mess with it and just hand me the gun to charge for him. I don't condone or condemn anybody choice of carry condition, I am just saying I have witnessed what a man with one hand can do as far as racking a slide goes. Of course my Dad did all this at his own pace and was not under stress or threat of bodily injury or death.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top