Carrying Unchambered - Practices, techniques, tips and tricks.

This is a discussion on Carrying Unchambered - Practices, techniques, tips and tricks. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; OK. Let's assume all hell breaks loose for whatever reason. It's Virginia Tech, Columbine, and Ft Hood all rolled into one. You had no earthly ...

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Thread: Carrying Unchambered - Practices, techniques, tips and tricks.

  1. #31
    Member Array RockBottom's Avatar
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    OK. Let's assume all hell breaks loose for whatever reason. It's Virginia Tech, Columbine, and Ft Hood all rolled into one. You had no earthly idea it was coming. You've got a semi-automatic pistol with no round in the chamber. Hit the pavement!! That will probably be instinctive, but if you feel the need to practice, do so. Stay away from walls. Ricocheting bullets follow walls. Just trust me on that. While you are on the ground, assuming that you have been wounded in one arm, grab your pistol with your free hand, brace the butt against the ground and rack the slide back with all your strength. With God on your side, carry on.

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  3. #32
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    I figure i will need 2 hands to rack most of my guns. Don't like that fact but it is what it is. I carry unchambered for one simple reason - children - most can't rack a slide and i have children around me and my house all the time. Not to worried about my kids - they have been trained on properly handling and most importantly not handling my guns but i worry like crazy that some kid over to play has not - and hey - i played with my dad's guns sometimes when i shouldn't have. This thread has got me thinking more about it though and as much as i enjoy shooting and practice fairly often - i don't practice drawing and racking much. - need to do that. The biggest problem i have had trying to rack with an alternative method is the gun not going into battery - seems like most of my smaller, carry guns need the slide pulled back and let go - any drag and they don't go into full battery - now my cz and 96 don't seem to much care - i think the smaller auto's have a whole set of issues that make racking under heat a challenge.
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  4. #33
    VIP Member Array Thunder71's Avatar
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    My PM9 (Kahr) is that way, it almost requires using the slide release for it to chamber the first round - still hoping for a solution to that problem.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockBottom View Post
    This will probably be pulled as off topic, but I just rack the slide. Whatever the scenario. I'm in a grocery store and I hear shooting five aisles down. I draw the weapon and rack the slide. I'm at my desk and I hear yelling from another office and gunfire. I draw the weapon and rack the slide. I approach an ATM late at night and see that someone is in the shadows off to the side. I drive away and find another ATM inside a store that's open 24 hrs. I'm sitting at the computer talking to you guys. The gun is in front of me, but there isn't a round in the chamber. I can probably chamber a round by grabbing the top of the slide and slamming the butt against my knee if absolutely necessary, but I'm not going to practice it.
    Quote Originally Posted by RockBottom View Post
    My biggest concern with carrying a firearm is not how to shoot someone with it, but the legal implications after I pull the trigger. Those are the scenarios that play through my head.
    RockBottom - these two posts seem at odds with each other, let me explain. In the second post you deal with liability mitigation, a very good concern. In the first post you suggest a course of action that may enhance, rather than mitigate liability.

    If you are in a public situation that looks to be going to heck and you have to draw your weapon to charge the chamber when, as you stated, the threat is 5 aisles away, you could be charged with brandishing or enciting panic. If the chamber were already charged, you could simply put hand to grip and not draw til absolutely necessary which would mitigate the risk of legal troubles.

    JD - this is not presented as a C1/C3 debate, but rather to explore liability issues that C3 may present in actual practice. If you need to delete this, fine, but this was my thought process.
    Last edited by ksholder; June 1st, 2011 at 07:48 AM. Reason: typo, format
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  6. #35
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    I once saw a Colombian motorcycle cop do it on his boot while operating his motorcycle. Way cool...

  7. #36
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockBottom View Post
    I'm sorry. You and I probably differ in age and I'm sure that we certainly differ in life experiences. My biggest concern with carrying a firearm is not how to shoot someone with it, but the legal implications after I pull the trigger. Those are the scenarios that play through my head.
    I think the age/life-experience is irrelevant.

    My concern in carrying a firearm is how to properly manipulate and shoot it, should the God-Forbid ever arise.

    I don't want it to.

    I don't plan for it to (i.e. I take proactive measures to "not be there").

    I -NEVER- want to have to draw my firearm to defend myself. I don't want to pull my knife. Heck, I don't want to pull my "pepper spray." I don't want to even have to raise my voice. I certainly don't want to have to go hand-to-hand.

    But I want to - and have, and will continue to - train for all of those scenarios.

    The legal implications are what I have learned (and continue to learn, by participating on Forums such as this one as well as my local/regional concealed-carry Forum) through my own reading of our State statutes as well as by, again, attending classes. They are what made me consult a lawyer prior to starting to carry. They are what I go to sleep at night thinking about and worrying about, sometimes: but you can bet that I will not be thinking about those what-ifs, when and if my firearm ever need to clear its holster in the defense of me or my loved-ones - or under any self-defensive scenario, armed or unarmed.


    ----


    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    My PM9 (Kahr) is that way, it almost requires using the slide release for it to chamber the first round - still hoping for a solution to that problem.
    ^ How many rounds has yours seen?

    My PM9 is a low-round-count. I bought it from a local gentlemen with about 150 rounds through her, and I'm now up to about 500 - and she has loosened-up a little bit.

    I prefer to "power-stroke," to rip the slide as my standard practice. I train for consistency, so this has been a concern of mine as well.

    Also, I don't know if your PM9 does this, but mine "hangs" just a bit on the Federal 147 gr. HST, which is my chosen SD/HD 9mm round - but does not exhibit the same trait with any other ammo, including the Speer GDHP in the same 147 gr. format. Using the Speer actually gives me much better first-round-in-chamber loading, regardless if I'm power-stroking or using the slide-stop/release.

    How many different ammo have you tried?


    -----


    Quote Originally Posted by jbr View Post
    I carry unchambered for one simple reason - children - most can't rack a slide and i have children around me and my house all the time.
    Be sure you still secure your firearm.

    Even though they may not be strong enough or coordinated enough to truly "rack the slide" as an adult would, it's still possible that something weird may happen, and it gets a round chambered.

    As with you, I'm a concerned parent, worried about the "what ifs," no matter how unlikely, so I just wanted to be sure.

    This thread has got me thinking more about it though and as much as i enjoy shooting and practice fairly often - i don't practice drawing and racking much. - need to do that. The biggest problem i have had trying to rack with an alternative method is the gun not going into battery - seems like most of my smaller, carry guns need the slide pulled back and let go - any drag and they don't go into full battery - now my cz and 96 don't seem to much care - i think the smaller auto's have a whole set of issues that make racking under heat a challenge.
    I agree, size seems to be an issue - in so much as just that a smaller pistol is going to be harder to operate, but also because some have slides which are under more recoil-spring tension.

    Since you have not practiced manipulations much, note that these alternative methods for racking the slide - to either charge the first round or in terms of clearing malfunctions - should be performed in a manner which allows the slide to ram back into battery under the force of the compressed recoil-spring: that these techniques are not intended to also allow the slide to "ride forward."

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    Also, I don't know if your PM9 does this, but mine "hangs" just a bit on the Federal 147 gr. HST, which is my chosen SD/HD 9mm round - but does not exhibit the same trait with any other ammo, including the Speer GDHP in the same 147 gr. format. Using the Speer actually gives me much better first-round-in-chamber loading, regardless if I'm power-stroking or using the slide-stop/release.

    How many different ammo have you tried?

    Why would you choose to carry an ammo that works less well than others you have tried. If you know this ammo hangs, and you ever had to do a one handed rerack what are the odds that the "hangs" just a little would cause the round and gun not to go into battery?

    You might want to try some of these techniques with your gun and see if your choosen ammo functions as well as others out there. I would go with the one that functions the best in the gun under all circumstances.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  9. #38
    VIP Member Array Thunder71's Avatar
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    My PM9 has about 600 rounds through it now, not issues at all except the known 'feature' of having to rack the slide with the slide release. Not sure if Kahr put that in the manual to avoid it being a defect or what, but it sucks and it's not a very good design in my opinion.

    Seems to chamber FMJ just fine, but hollow points is a whole other story... I have to tap the bottom of the magazine or nudge the slide to get it to chamber the round. Currently using Remington Ultimate Home Defense in it.

  10. #39
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    taking your chosen method of carry to one logical conclusion--

    1st we need the proper tool such that the job has the best chance for success;
    after all, one doe not take a Chevy Malibu to the Indy 500 and expect to win.

    so--it needs to have a long slide so the spring will offer the least resistance and avoid stacking;
    --we need a tall and squared off rear sight such that it has a large surface area to catch on whatever we use to rack it in a one-handed mode;
    --the ejection port on the slide should have minimal openness on the top so as to minimize it catching on fabric when being one-handed;
    --the grip should be large enough to allow for a strong and secure one-handed grip;

    a 1911 ( perhaps even Officer's size) is a tool that has it all. (I'm sure there are others but a Kahr is not in this race)
    flared and lowered ejection port; bomar or equivilant rear sght
    locked BUT not loaded reduces the energy needed to rack the slide--a further plus.
    a light weight alloy frame brings the weight down to 29 ounces.
    perhaps not as small as everything else in the gun store, but it will run to win with the conditions you have required.
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
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  11. #40
    Member Array RockBottom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    taking your chosen method of carry to one logical conclusion--

    1st we need the proper tool such that the job has the best chance for success;
    after all, one doe not take a Chevy Malibu to the Indy 500 and expect to win.

    so--it needs to have a long slide so the spring will offer the least resistance and avoid stacking;
    --we need a tall and squared off rear sight such that it has a large surface area to catch on whatever we use to rack it in a one-handed mode;
    --the ejection port on the slide should have minimal openness on the top so as to minimize it catching on fabric when being one-handed;
    --the grip should be large enough to allow for a strong and secure one-handed grip;

    a 1911 ( perhaps even Officer's size) is a tool that has it all. (I'm sure there are others but a Kahr is not in this race)
    flared and lowered ejection port; bomar or equivilant rear sght
    locked BUT not loaded reduces the energy needed to rack the slide--a further plus.
    a light weight alloy frame brings the weight down to 29 ounces.
    perhaps not as small as everything else in the gun store, but it will run to win with the conditions you have required.
    Here's what I carry. It seems to do pretty well as far as meeting most of your criteria

  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    RockBottom, ua posted a pic of a beautiful handgun. my favorite carry after i changed out from a colt defender is my Sig p239/40, 1st gen
    bet it is a joy to handle and shoot.

    but for the -0-chamber carry, i did not include the decocker Sig's cause of the extra time to cock the hammer ( as a cocked hammer lets the slide move easier helping to ensure
    that one does not short stroke the slide when one handing it). also the ejection port is square to the top of the slide allowing for the possibility of fabric to get tangled.
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
    -------------------
    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

  13. #42
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    I typically carry unchambered. For practicing a one-handed rack, I grab the slide and then jam the grip against my leg and rack the slide. It works OK. But two-handed rack is definitely my preferred method of chambering a round. Additionally, I only use FMJ ammo (.45 acp), just to make sure the weapon will cycle without a jam. I find FMJ is much more forgiving for FTF and FTE's. And since I usually carry unchambered, I want to ensure that my pistol will not jam, so it's FMJ for me all the way.
    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

  14. #43
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    If your doing one hand manipulations try some skater tape on the top of the slide right in front of the rear sight. Its nice and abrasive so you can rack the slide on your pants. Just a suggestion.

  15. #44
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Chevy-SS i ask you to 'jam the grip' when standing, seated, on knees and on your back.
    do it fast--as in your life depends on it and tell me where your muzzle is pointing.

    you are going to have to work hard at this cause you are forbidden to cover yourself. in fact;
    you may not cover anything but what you intend to shoot. i ain't asking for the impossible cause in failour drills your method is vialiable...just needs lots of practice.
    getting outside the box can be a life saver in the real world. the more skills you have, the better your chance of survival when things happen other than as you planned for.

    2 thumbs up for 1967
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
    -------------------
    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

  16. #45
    Member Array RockBottom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    RockBottom, ua posted a pic of a beautiful handgun. my favorite carry after i changed out from a colt defender is my Sig p239/40, 1st gen
    bet it is a joy to handle and shoot.

    but for the -0-chamber carry, i did not include the decocker Sig's cause of the extra time to cock the hammer ( as a cocked hammer lets the slide move easier helping to ensure
    that one does not short stroke the slide when one handing it). also the ejection port is square to the top of the slide allowing for the possibility of fabric to get tangled.
    Thanks. I've put several hundred rounds through it with nary a hiccup. It handles Speer Gold Dots really well and shoots straight. Racking one handed is doable, but it's a chore. After what I've read here, if a bad guy ever sees it, he should assume that there's one in the chamber.

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