Carrying Unchambered - Practices, techniques, tips and tricks.

This is a discussion on Carrying Unchambered - Practices, techniques, tips and tricks. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by farronwolf Why would you choose to carry an ammo that works less well than others you have tried. If you know this ...

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Thread: Carrying Unchambered - Practices, techniques, tips and tricks.

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Why would you choose to carry an ammo that works less well than others you have tried. If you know this ammo hangs, and you ever had to do a one handed rerack what are the odds that the "hangs" just a little would cause the round and gun not to go into battery?

    You might want to try some of these techniques with your gun and see if your choosen ammo functions as well as others out there. I would go with the one that functions the best in the gun under all circumstances.
    Don't worry, I've already switched to the 147 gr. Speer GDHP.

    I'm a beginner, so my first fear was that if I'd keep too many different ammo around, that I'd undoubtedly mess it up somehow.

    That was a fallacy that I realized after reading one of Mr. Ayoob's posts: that as the loading of my magazines of my firearms occurs in an "administrative" setting, such confusion should be nil. Of-course, I smacked myself in the head :facepalm:, said "duh," re-loaded my gun and magazines, and ordered some more of the Speers the very next day.

    I'm of the belief that one *MUST* "prove" one's chosen SD/HD ammo, in one's own firearms. I saw this in-practice with my SR9c, and again with the PM9. Even "premium" in known-quality firearms can present unusual problems. My due-diligence has, since November, seen 300-400 rounds of the 147 gr. HST my carry, HD, and backup pistols, and about 150 out of the PM9 (so, doing the math, that's about 20 or so magazine changes, and although the pistol did "hang," on a number of them, it never failed to go fully into battery; nevertheless, the HST is definitely not going to be my top choice, for this particular pistol) - which now has also seen about 100 of the Speer 147 gr. GDHP. My goal is to get to 500 rounds of the chosen SD/HD ammo in each gun, before the year's out.

    No worries about the single-handed techniques. I've been training diligently for malfunctions and other single-handed operation, both strong and weak hands. It was at a recent class that I found out that I was really being too gentle with the gun, when I was faced with a double-feed malfunction, under stress. Guess what I'm now redoubling my efforts on, specifically? I believe strongly in doing my due-diligence.


    -----


    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    Seems to chamber FMJ just fine, but hollow points is a whole other story... I have to tap the bottom of the magazine or nudge the slide to get it to chamber the round. Currently using Remington Ultimate Home Defense in it.
    That's not right....how many different makes/models of various premium self-defense hollowpoints have you tried?
    Last edited by SIXTO; June 2nd, 2011 at 07:28 AM.

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  3. #47
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    In shooting encounters people tend to shoot at the muzzle flash and one of the most prevalent injuries is to the hand. If you're injured, it most likely could be to the hand. Being able to rack your slide, one handed, may be a life or death situation.

    Using the rear sight on your belt or rear pocket should be your top choice. I've found the typical jeans back pocket lip to be very good for racking a slide. The side of the thigh is my third choice. Using the back pocket or thigh requires putting most of the force into your leg or backside, before a very sharp, hard push downward to rack the slide. It might take a bite out of your flesh, but you'll still be here.
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  4. #48
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    The topic of this thread is one of the reasons I prefer DAO in an EDC; most malfunctions are solved by simply pulling the trigger again. I don't have to put much time into one hand racking skills, as they aren't as necessary as they are if you carry a DA/SA or striker action pistol. I still put some time into it, but it isn't a priority.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

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  5. #49
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    The topic of this thread is one of the reasons I prefer DAO in an EDC; most malfunctions are solved by simply pulling the trigger again. I don't have to put much time into one hand racking skills, as they aren't as necessary as they are if you carry a DA/SA or striker action pistol. I still put some time into it, but it isn't a priority.
    ...provided the cartridge goes off the second time. I think I'll try my luck with a fresh cartridge despite having 2nd strike capability. YMMV.

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    Senior Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ I see validity to both sides of that argument - I would also like second-strike capability (but since my carry and main HD pistols do not offer this capability, I've trained otherwise), I can certainly see how it could be beneficial in a time-is-life situation, since you won't have to come off-target. But indeed, there's a definite chance that it could just be a bad round, and that ejecting it for fresh is necessary.

    Whatever the case, I do think it's important that one trains with consistency in-mind: that under stress, if one does own a "single-action striker-fired" pistol without second-strike capability as, say, their primary home-defense pistol, that they are familiar with this pistol, and not mistake it for their, say, true-EDC, which may well be a second-strike capable pistol.

  7. #51
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    ...provided the cartridge goes off the second time. I think I'll try my luck with a fresh cartridge despite having 2nd strike capability. YMMV.
    Very true, very true.

    I do believe that with most modern loads and handguns, in my case the Tactical HST 147gr in an HK P30, that the chances of having a misfire are extraordinarily low. Then, the chances of a malfunction requiring racking instead of a second trigger pull such as a stovepipe, are even lower. Besides, pulling the trigger again is much quicker than having to rack the slide and pull the trigger and if it does go boom, you just saved yourself from being kicked or stabbed or sliced again, hopefully!
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    The topic of this thread is one of the reasons I prefer DAO in an EDC; most malfunctions are solved by simply pulling the trigger again. I don't have to put much time into one hand racking skills, as they aren't as necessary as they are if you carry a DA/SA or striker action pistol. I still put some time into it, but it isn't a priority.
    WOW.

    I mean...

    Wow.


  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    The topic of this thread is one of the reasons I prefer DAO in an EDC; most malfunctions are solved by simply pulling the trigger again. I don't have to put much time into one hand racking skills, as they aren't as necessary as they are if you carry a DA/SA or striker action pistol. I still put some time into it, but it isn't a priority.
    My DA/SA pistols have the exact same second strike capability as your DAO.


    And malfunction drills are important regardless of pistol type. A feed or eject failure could ruin your day. Practice until you do it w/o thinking.
    OPFOR likes this.
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    Ditto exactly what fastk9dad said - a typical DA/SA functions exactly the same as a DAO as far as second strike capabilities. That said, so what? Get rid of the bad round immediately (because you don't KNOW it's a bad round, you just know it didn't go bang - why waste time assuming it was a dud, and assuming that pulling the trigger again will have any effect?) and get back in the fight. "Second strike," IMO, is 99.99% marketing gimmick and .01% (and I'm being generous here) legitimate benefit.
    TSiWRX likes this.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Senior Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ I think that perhaps AZ Hawk simply made an error in terminology - I simply read his post, at first, as being "SA/striker-fire."

    But that aside - why default to a tap-rack-assess/bang drill, if by big-boy's rules we understand the operation of our firearm - knowing that it has second-strike capabilities - and decline to pull the trigger a second time, if it's already on-target?

    How much time is wasted between that second press of the trigger and a tap-rack-assess/bang?

    But then again, one could say that at the first sign of malfunction, in trying to visualize what is wrong with the auto-pistol we are already taking it off-target (i.e. in just tilting the gun back a few degrees, so as to visualize slide-battery and chamber condition)...that obviously makes second-strike capabilities much more of a marketing gimmic.

    Good point. As a newbie, I definitely hadn't thought that one through. Thank you, OPFOR.

  12. #56
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    ^ I think that perhaps AZ Hawk simply made an error in terminology - I simply read his post, at first, as being "SA/striker-fire."

    But that aside - why default to a tap-rack-assess/bang drill, if by big-boy's rules we understand the operation of our firearm - knowing that it has second-strike capabilities - and decline to pull the trigger a second time, if it's already on-target?

    How much time is wasted between that second press of the trigger and a tap-rack-assess/bang?

    But then again, one could say that at the first sign of malfunction, in trying to visualize what is wrong with the auto-pistol we are already taking it off-target (i.e. in just tilting the gun back a few degrees, so as to visualize slide-battery and chamber condition)...that obviously makes second-strike capabilities much more of a marketing gimmic.

    Good point. As a newbie, I definitely hadn't thought that one through. Thank you, OPFOR.
    The issue isn't quite the act of pulling the trigger, but the decision making processes in between. Average reaction time is what, .25 of a second? that .25 to realize it's a dud, .25 to pull the trigger again, .25 in realizing it didn't work and need to TRB (tap, rack, bang) and perform the TRB..., .5? 1.25 seconds in a 5 second gun fight is a long time.

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    Just wanted to pop in and say that I'm in reading mode and enjoying this second attempt - thanks guys!

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    I've (thankfully) run across very few dud rounds in my day. None of them fired after the "second strike" that I tried on them. Not to say that it COULDN'T work, but it hasn't. Ever. I see absolutely no reason not to simply ditch the round (and, in the process, take care of most other problems if it ISN'T a dud) right away. I guess maybe if it's my very, very last round, but then I think the time would be better spent getting the heck out of Dodge... :)
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Senior Member Array WC145's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AZ Hawk
    The topic of this thread is one of the reasons I prefer DAO in an EDC; most malfunctions are solved by simply pulling the trigger again. I don't have to put much time into one hand racking skills, as they aren't as necessary as they are if you carry a DA/SA or striker action pistol. I still put some time into it, but it isn't a priority.
    I would think that the topic of this thread - ideas on getting an unchambered gun into action - renders the DAO, DA/SA, SAO argument moot since it doesn't matter how many times you pull the trigger the empty gun won't fire.

    I posted some about our one-handed training for reloads and correcting malfunctions, but when it comes to drawing and getting an unchambered gun charged when you need to consider the time involved and the exposure. Probably the best thing you can practice is movement and use of cover/concealment to buy yourself time to charge the gun. Of course the sound of you racking the slide could very well give your position away rather than intimidate.

    Also, some of your wrote about problems with 147gr ammo. Lots of guns have issues feeding hat stuff because of the OAL. If your gun doesn't run reliably with it maybe you should consider trying some of the 124gr or 115gr loads that are out there. You might find that it works better.
    MotorCityGun likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    WOW.

    I mean...

    Wow.

    Thinking oneself armed because one owns a gun is like thinking oneself a musician based on ownership of a piano.

    It's never been more true.

    I'd suggest that the best "technique" for carrying condition three involves using a mouse and phone to find a professional trainer, and then obtaining training.

    Matt
    MotorCityGun likes this.
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