Carrying Unchambered - Practices, techniques, tips and tricks.

This is a discussion on Carrying Unchambered - Practices, techniques, tips and tricks. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; RE: Second-strike: Originally Posted by JD Originally Posted by TSiWRX ^ I think that perhaps AZ Hawk simply made an error in terminology - I ...

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Thread: Carrying Unchambered - Practices, techniques, tips and tricks.

  1. #61
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    RE: Second-strike:



    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    ^ I think that perhaps AZ Hawk simply made an error in terminology - I simply read his post, at first, as being "SA/striker-fire."

    But that aside - why default to a tap-rack-assess/bang drill, if by big-boy's rules we understand the operation of our firearm - knowing that it has second-strike capabilities - and decline to pull the trigger a second time, if it's already on-target?

    How much time is wasted between that second press of the trigger and a tap-rack-assess/bang?

    But then again, one could say that at the first sign of malfunction, in trying to visualize what is wrong with the auto-pistol we are already taking it off-target (i.e. in just tilting the gun back a few degrees, so as to visualize slide-battery and chamber condition)...that obviously makes second-strike capabilities much more of a marketing gimmic.

    Good point. As a newbie, I definitely hadn't thought that one through. Thank you, OPFOR.
    The issue isn't quite the act of pulling the trigger, but the decision making processes in between. Average reaction time is what, .25 of a second? that .25 to realize it's a dud, .25 to pull the trigger again, .25 in realizing it didn't work and need to TRB (tap, rack, bang) and perform the TRB..., .5? 1.25 seconds in a 5 second gun fight is a long time.
    Agreed - even without leaning the pistol back to observe the source of the malfunction, it does a pause, and time is something you can never get back.

    And, as I cited previously on another thread that related to this OP, as that c.2000 Force Science Institute study suggests (and the 2011 PoliceOne.com article reinforces), those fractions of a second really do count.

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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Thinking oneself armed because one owns a gun is like thinking oneself a musician based on ownership of a piano.

    It's never been more true.

    I'd suggest that the best "technique" for carrying condition three involves using a mouse and phone to find a professional trainer, and then obtaining training.

    Matt
    This is a thread on how to train...started by someone who has admitted in another thread they have not taken professional training, with posters who do not practice or understand malfunction drills commenting on the purported value of such drills compared to the 'second strike' capability of certain firearms.

    That's my "wow" here...Because I just don't know what to say regarding what I see as a slow moving train wreck.

    I see UNCHAMBERED - Index has gotten off the ground, and that's great. Ya'll have fun.

    However, I'd really like to know if any of the UC.INFO crew have done any pressure testing of their techniques.
    Live fire on timed drills, force on force with airsoft...

    Something?

    I mean, this is all about "training" right?

    I get people want to "be safe" so they aren't doing that round in the chamber thing, or they just aren't comfortable with it yet, so they are looking for something they 'can use right now'...

    But have you evaluated it under stress?

    I don't mean being questioned on it...I mean have you done an ammo check to make sure their is no live ammo in the area, triple checked all weapons to be clear, then do it again

    ...then put yourself between a pair of parked cars, have your friend who doesn MMA go at you moderately hard, and when some shouts "KNIFE" you get to draw, rack and 'fire' at your opponent, and see how that works out for you.

    Hell, for the sake of these drills, consider a successful racking as the end point just to be extra safe and avoid pointing a real gun at someone...

    Doing it in your house without anyone deliberately trying to mess up your balance, coordination or technique is PRACTICE. Not training.

    Training is when things do NOT go as planned, and unexpected factors bang you faster than a...insert failing college student/harsh grading younger professor comment here.

    So, does anyone here actually train with unchambered carry, or is it all talk?

    If anyone is in the CT area and doesn't have anyone to assit them in pressure-testing their ideas, I'll step up.

    I'll be your partner for some drills. I've got a glock, Blade-tech holster, mags and dummy rounds for you to use. All you have to do is be willing to do is let me try to prevent you from getting that weapon into action.

    We won't get terribly hard, and I'm not going to try to injure you, show you up or anything like that.

    I'm just going to work hard at fouling your draw and rack, looking for honest results.

    And I'm cool with being wrong.
    JD and WC145 like this.

  4. #63
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    This is a thread on how to train...started by someone who has admitted in another thread they have not taken professional training, with posters who do not practice or understand malfunction drills commenting on the purported value of such drills compared to the 'second strike' capability of certain firearms.
    Not every poster.

    I think that Force-on-Force is tremendously important training. It's one of the reasons why I like my chosen local instructor so much - because he incorporates so much Force-on-Force into his curriculum.

    A big part of the reason why I carry with one in the pipe - and have a selected a carry pistol that I'm comfortable with having one in the pipe - is because I've actually tried (physically and first-hand, with friends of mine) this scenario of limalife's:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/limalife#p/u/12/syxrpLbaEuY

  5. #64
    JD
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    We've actually done some of the practicing that Mitchell is talking about, going "live" with airsoft against a living, moving, thinking aggressor makes a world of difference.

    Edited to add: TSi just posted our brief little workshop on chambered vs. unchambered, understand that this thread is to stay on topic of methods for getting one in the tube when needed and training related to it. We planned on doing more in that video series, but the Airsoft gun broke and we were unable to continue as planned.

    Do not use the video to restart the C1 vs C3 debate again or I'm just going start deleting posts.

  6. #65
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    We've actually done some of the practicing that Mitchell is talking about, going "live" with airsoft against a living, moving, thinking aggressor makes a world of difference.
    Not to nit-pick, but you need to tighten up that exagerated drawstroke with the knife.

    Watch as you bring the knife out, it breaks the outlike of you body and forms a seperate line of movement before you get it into an attacking motion against her. Reference your video 0:44 - 0:58 & 1:35 - forward during the slow motion section.

    Your attack seems to come out to the side of your weapon hand, low, then into the movement to attack.

    Draw it from your waistband, bring it up as if you were going to bring a gun up from appendix carry to high ready and punch it out.

    You can effectively "stab with the edge" without having to move your arm very much off of the lines of motion you would use with bringing a gun up to compressed-high ready then out to extension.

    You will "slice" time and movement off your attack, while being able to keep movements as consistant as possible from one weapon to another.

    Thus, the gun becomes training with a knife, training with a knife becomes training the drawstroke for a gun, and both become an extra rep for a straight punch.

    Yeah. I know...freaky, isn't it...

  7. #66
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Not to nit-pick, but you need to tighten up that exagerated drawstroke with the knife.

    Watch as you bring the knife out, it breaks the outlike of you body and forms a seperate line of movement before you get it into an attacking motion against her. Reference your video 0:44 - 0:58 during the slow motion section.

    Draw it from your waistband, bring it up as if you were going to bring a gun up from appendix carry to high ready and punch it out.

    You can effectively "stab with the edge" without having to move your arm very much off of the lines of motion you would use with bringing a gun up to compressed-high ready then out to extension.

    You will "slice" time and movement off your attack, while being able to keep movements as consistant as possible from one weapon to another.

    Thus, the gun becomes training with a knife, training with a knife becomes training the drawstroke for a gun, and both become an extra rep for a straight punch.

    Yeah. I know...freaky, isn't it...
    Thanks for the insight, this was before we had genuine training knives (they were on order at the time) I was using a rubberish spatula and the reason the stroke is sooo exaggerated is that it was sticking to every piece of clothing I had on, it almost I literally had to tear it off of me as it kept getting hung up.

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    So you were stabbing your wife with a rubber kitchen impliment as she shot at you on film, then found fit to post it online for the world to see?

    Sir, I commend you. The Superior Court of the State of Connecticut commends you.

    You have rendered me speachless in response.



  9. #68
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    So you were stabbing your wife with a rubber kitchen impliment as she shot at you on film, then found fit to post it online for the world to see?

    Sir, I commend you. The Superior Court of the State of Connecticut commends you.

    You have rendered me speachless in response.


    ....Not much else to do in Central Iowa in November I guess.

    On a side note, a good number of people that carried C3 (note past tense) changed their outlook on things after seeing that video (kitchen spatula and all) and rethought their methods and now carry with one in the chamber. It may be crude, and unprofessional (I thought the snow shovel in the background was a nice touch) but it appears to work and reach it's intended audience.

    ...Now back to our regularly scheduled program....

  10. #69
    VIP Member Array Thunder71's Avatar
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    Now you just need a similar video demonstrating someone shooting their leg or an innocent bystander because they fat fingered the draw or re-holstering.

    Sorry, but come on - I thought we weren't debating this.

  11. #70
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    Now you just need a similar video demonstrating someone shooting their leg or an innocent bystander because they fat fingered the draw or re-holstering.

    Sorry, but come on - I thought we weren't debating this.
    I'm sorry, but who's making the debate? Someone was simply illustrating means of testing the ideas / suggestions in this thread, that is all. If you don't turn it into a debate, guess what, there's no debate.

  12. #71
    VIP Member Array Thunder71's Avatar
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    I did see a good video of a self defense strategy last night on YouTube I believe, trying to find it again - but it was related to having to chamber a round during the attack. The video title I remember wasn't related, something like 'you have to see this' (not really that, but just as generic).

    Hopefully it's still in my browsing history at home.

  13. #72
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    ....Not much else to do in Central Iowa in November I guess.

    On a side note, a good number of people that carried C3 (note past tense) changed their outlook on things after seeing that video (kitchen spatula and all) and rethought their methods and now carry with one in the chamber. It may be crude, and unprofessional (I thought the snow shovel in the background was a nice touch) but it appears to work and reach it's intended audience.

    ...Now back to our regularly scheduled program....
    Well since we have gone slightly off topic, I'll give it another push in that direction.

    I know that JD and Lima have a child, and I couldn't help but think of what someone down the road a few years is going to think:
    "Ring Ring" ( a phone rings)
    Said child answerd phone. "Hello" ..pause to listen...
    "No my mommy can't come to the phone, she's busy shooting daddy."

  14. #73
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    Now you just need a similar video demonstrating someone shooting their leg or an innocent bystander because they fat fingered the draw or re-holstering.

    Sorry, but come on - I thought we weren't debating this.

    You are the condition 3 advocate, and you asked for practice suggestions, techniques and so forth...I responded. On point and directly, I might add.

    I suggested testing. testing under realistic conditions.

    Conditions of pressure. Conditions of stress. Conditions in which the unexpected occurs, and someone has to respond to the situation as it comes, not how we wish it to be.

    If pressure testing an idea gives someone pause, then maybe it is an idea that really needs to be pressure tested very hard indeed.

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array Thunder71's Avatar
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    I agree, would be great to get a group of people together to do this kind of training and take it seriously. Unfortunately most any 'official' training is based off of military or police training, not civilian and therefore also based on carrying with one in the chamber.

    I am looking however.

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    Now you just need a similar video demonstrating someone shooting their leg or an innocent bystander because they fat fingered the draw or re-holstering.

    Sorry, but come on - I thought we weren't debating this.

    Wait!? So you're in a self defense shooting and now you're going to take time to clear the weapon before re-holstering and getting out of there? Why because it's not a familiar practice for you to holster a loaded gun?

    Sorry, but the training should be how to holster and un-holster safely, not relying upon an empty chamber to force you to be "safe" and then using obscure training techniques to perfect chambering on the draw.
    "I got a lot of problems with you people!" - Frank Costanza

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