Carrying Unchambered - Practices, techniques, tips and tricks.

This is a discussion on Carrying Unchambered - Practices, techniques, tips and tricks. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The Israeli Instinctive Combat Shooting Method YouTube - ‪AGI 301 The Israeli Instinctive Combat Shooting Method‬‏...

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Thread: Carrying Unchambered - Practices, techniques, tips and tricks.

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  3. #77
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I would suggest that the nature of the activity and the typical distances involved confronting terrorist activities tend to lend more credence to the Israeli method. These activities and typical distances are often considerably different than when confronting criminal activities and therefor for do not relate directly to the confrontation of criminal activities. Apples and oranges, so to speak.
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  4. #78
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    I agree, would be great to get a group of people together to do this kind of training and take it seriously. Unfortunately most any 'official' training is based off of military or police training, not civilian and therefore also based on carrying with one in the chamber.

    I am looking however.
    So, Massad Ayoob's training through Lethal Force Institute (Now the Massad Ayoob Group) is unsuitable for civilians because...he's taken techniques and drills from his law enforcement carrer as well as incorporated other skills and drills from other trainers who have been in the military?

    Chuck Taylor's classes for civilians are unsuitable for civilians because he's been in the military, and teaches civilians the skills he's used in real life to put people in the ground?

    Oh, wait...lets look at the Rogers Shooting School...Dam, wait. No. Can't train their...Bill Rogers was an FBI agent. Police training...I forgot.

    Al-righty, then.

    You seem to want training for civilians, geared ONLY for civilians...

    This is not a personal attack, so I ask it in honesty to glean information, "How would you know the difference between training that is geared toward civilians and that which is geared toward the military or law enforcement when you?"

    Look, you've said in your previous posts that you are new to this stuff, so really...what makes you so certain you are on the right track?

    Have you considered that you don't know what you don't know?

  5. #79
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    OK, I was trying to stay open minded...but then I got to the 2:59 mark where he shoulder rolls AWAY FROM COVER and THEN chambers a cartridge in the wide open.

    With a little refinement, such as not getting all chicken winged after the draw stroke, that could be OK, maybe it was exaggerated for demonstration purposes or whatever...but yeah, that's the Israeli method in a nut-shell.

  6. #80
    VIP Member Array Thunder71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    OK, I was trying to stay open minded...but then I got to the 2:59 mark where he shoulder rolls AWAY FROM COVER and THEN chambers a cartridge in the wide open.
    I laughed at that part and thought uh... really? Couldn't rack the slide before the neato roll? If I know ahead of time, I'm racking and rolling - not the other way around!

  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    So, Massad Ayoob's training through Lethal Force Institute (Now the Massad Ayoob Group) is unsuitable for civilians because...he's taken techniques and drills from his law enforcement carrer as well as incorporated other skills and drills from other trainers who have been in the military?

    Chuck Taylor's classes for civilians are unsuitable for civilians because he's been in the military, and teaches civilians the skills he's used in real life to put people in the ground?

    Oh, wait...lets look at the Rogers Shooting School...Dam, wait. No. Can't train their...Bill Rogers was an FBI agent. Police training...I forgot.

    Al-righty, then.

    You seem to want training for civilians, geared ONLY for civilians...

    This is not a personal attack, so I ask it in honesty to glean information, "How would you know the difference between training that is geared toward civilians and that which is geared toward the military or law enforcement when you?"

    Look, you've said in your previous posts that you are new to this stuff, so really...what makes you so certain you are on the right track?

    Have you considered that you don't know what you don't know?
    I think the point that Thunder is trying to make, if I am correct in my assumptions, is that the bulk of training available is taught from the get-go to have one in the chamber and that he is looking for training specifically geared toward training that accommodates C3 carry.

    My suggestion to Thunder would be to contact the instructors of the courses you are interested in and see if it's OK to work from a C3 starting point. Some may be willing to allow it, at the very least get to partake in some very interesting conversations with real world experts regarding C3 carry and any tips/tricks/skills that may be of benefit.

  8. #82
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    I laughed at that part and thought uh... really? Couldn't rack the slide before the neato roll? If I know ahead of time, I'm racking and rolling - not the other way around!
    Better yet, skip the roll, shoot from cover/concealment. It's right up there with "Leave the gun, take the cannoli"

  9. #83
    VIP Member Array Thunder71's Avatar
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    I already know how that conversation will go, the instructor for my carry permit class is a bounty hunter - needless to say he's anti C3 and quite a vocal individual. :)

  10. #84
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    The Izzy method is mandated by law in Israel, due to the poor level of small arms discipline they have a habit of exhibiting.

    Israel is properly thought of as a very large military base with a lot of people carrying arms that the government collectively has great reservations about because while they can FIGHT with those weapons well...teenagers LIVING with the weapons gives them ulcers.

    Israel is also a socialist country that is very frightened of it's people being armed.

    While they have a large incidence of gun ownership, they are not happy about it on a federal level, and keep seeking to tighten standards of ownership up.

    Granted, that still leaves a LOT of people who qualify for various reasons...military, security, employment...

    But as a right? No. Israel has no RKBA.

    It also has no hunting culture to speak of.

    It's a military society, and in the military they are more conserned about accidents with issued weapons by people who qualified last year (and then, only barely, but what the hell, he's a dentist...it's not like he really is going to fight...) than they are about individual readiness & safety.

    It's all pervasive, and really a wrong thing to hold up to the USA to compare with.

    Just because they are westernized, have exceedingly hot women that they don't cover up and the country is effectively a large beach/shopping mall/bakery (they have thousands of them all over the place one after the other, that seem to all sell the same fresh baked chocolate filled pastery when I went 10 years ago...I don't get it, but I ate it...)...

    They aren't the 59th state by any means.

  11. #85
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    OT, but am I the only one who is sick to death of "Israeli" somehow automatically equaling "cooler than you'll ever be?" The Israeli Defense Forces are primarily moderately-trained conscripts. The "Israeli carry" is, by and large, no longer used even by the Israelis. I swear, "Israeli" has become a marketing gimmick for people who want to sound a lot better/cooler than they actually are...

    ETA: Mitchel, you beat me to it. And what are the 51st through 58th states?
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    I laughed at that part and thought uh... really? Couldn't rack the slide before the neato roll? If I know ahead of time, I'm racking and rolling - not the other way around!
    Better yet use the cover/concealment to your advantage. :)
    "I got a lot of problems with you people!" - Frank Costanza

  13. #87
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    I already know how that conversation will go, the instructor for my carry permit class is a bounty hunter - needless to say he's anti C3 and quite a vocal individual. :)
    ...Bounty hunter?

    Give these guys a call and see if you can run their Defensive Class from C3.

  14. #88
    JD
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    OK, everyone go back and read

    THE BIG RED LETTERS in the first post of this thread.

    I know we had a little off topic banter for a couple of posts, but lets try and rein it in a little.

  15. #89
    Senior Member Array WC145's Avatar
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    I don't think a link to this site has been posted yet. I only got to watch a few minutes of the unchambered video but it's well done and it looks like he addresses a number of aspects of C3 carry via a series of videos. Hopefully everyone can benefit from them.
    Montgomery Alabama - Get Home After, LLC

  16. #90
    VIP Member Array Thunder71's Avatar
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    Been posted, I question the videos somewhat since he admits he doesn't practice this way but does the best he can for the video demonstration.

    That's just skewed from the get go.

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