Why do women recommend against carry for a battered woman?
This is a discussion on Why do women recommend against carry for a battered woman? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Problem is most of these abused women are nuts from what I have seen of calls. It’s a sick twisted relationship, but they seam to ...
June 2nd, 2011 11:37 PM
Problem is most of these abused women are nuts from what I have seen of calls. It’s a sick twisted relationship, but they seam to want to keep the status quote. Very much so what Lima said. Carrying a gun is a personal decision and not for all. if you can I think it’s a great idea. however if the victim is just going to go back to him it really has no point.
June 3rd, 2011 01:02 AM
Hmm. I dont know the legal aspects if you are married to that person, but if a man began beating on me, I'd consider it life-threatening and my gun would be a legitimate defense. Just because he hasnt killed her so far doesnt mean he wont. It certainly ends up that way sometimes.
Originally Posted by Xader
However I'd hope there was a record of abuse beforehand and really...that she had been long gone period.
Fortune favors the bold.
Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.
The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)
June 3rd, 2011 01:13 AM
She needs to leave first. Period. If she's not committed to that, IMO she's not committed to defending herself. She hasnt so far and in some cases, has not been able to remove her children from the situation either, which is even worse.
If she cant bring herself to leave (retreat/escape), she's certainly a poor candidate for a firearm. She needs counseling and maybe training for other methods of avoidance and defense.
Without committment and resolve, that gun would only be turned against her.
I do agree that some women, after leaving....would be smart to get training and a firearm....there's a sad sad record of men returning to kill.
Fortune favors the bold.
Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.
The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)
June 3rd, 2011 01:35 AM
If she keeps someone in her life who treats her that way then she doesn't have the capacity to handle a firearm.
I'll admit that's a very broad, sweeping statement; but it's true more often than not.
"The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
June 3rd, 2011 10:49 AM
+1 to 9MMare. She needs to leave. On average it takes 6-7 incidents of battering before a women leaves. So a weapon until she leaves will probably not be used by her, but probable against her. After she leaves is the time to get a weapon AND training.
June 4th, 2011 03:13 PM
Thank you Limatunes and 9MMare. My first thought is that those women had been drinking the Kool aid believing that a handgun will only be used against you as the Brady Bunch claims. So my first response is to suggest that is BS and that lady needs to get a gun and blast the SOB the next time he puts his paws on her. You ladies bring some good sound reasoning to the table, that I know to be true. I have been attacked twice by women on whose behalf I had intervened. In one case far more than seven years ago, so I can be completely candid here. This iron worker pushing 300 lbs without an ounce of fat on him was pummeling a lady, not slapping her or man handling her but closed fisted pounding on her while screaming every vile vulgarity you can imagine at her. Enraged but knowing I was not about to dance with this big pecker wood and get my melon popped like a pimple, I knee capped him. He hit the ground like a sack of potatoes, the sound must of made him think he had been shot as that is what he is screaming as he was trying to get back up while I was putting the boots to him trying to make a field goal with his melon. The lady jumps on me with her purse hindering me as I kick him. The police arrive and she tells them I had attacked them both, charges me with assault. Thankfully the police realize I could not have done that to her face, she almost lost an eye. Witnesses came forward on my behalf and she was convinced to drop charges. Still cost me a pretty penny. Another lady was being pushed and slapped. I stepped in between the two pushing him back demanding he get a grip. She starts in hitting me again with the purse telling me to mind my own business. So I left them, as they to made up.. weird. Another lady a friend, removed herself from the situation was hunted down by her abuser and killed. Had she been able she would of had a gun and could of defended herself but the gun control advocates made sure that was not possible for her until she got her permit. By than she was dead.
Your input to the discussion does reveal why these women would not be best served by arming themselves while they are still in the relationship. Can only hope that they end it, move on, and accept the help that is offered to them. Get help so that they do not repeat the cycle.
Last edited by LongRider; June 5th, 2011 at 07:32 AM.
Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution
Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family
June 4th, 2011 10:00 PM
It is so easy for people to judge those who have been the recipient of abuse.
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. ó Winston Churchill
June 5th, 2011 04:37 PM
Abuse is insidious. It doesn't start out with blows and beatings. It starts out with "No, babe, I don't want you to do that. You love me don't you, don't you want to make me happy?
Then it's "change your hair for me. Lose some weight. you're getting fat. I don't like the clothes you wear. You look like a whore. I don't want my woman going out like that."
Then it's "Why can't you cook better? Look at this house, it's a pigsty, Why can't you keep it clean? No, don't wash my clothes like that. Do it like *this!*"
Then it's "You can't do anything right. You're stupid, you're incompetent. You'd be lost without me to keep after you."
And it's "You have no common sense. You can't even think right. Why did you do that? Why didn't you do it like I told you to?"
Then it's "You're #$^@-ed up, your mother #$^@-ed you up, and you're gonna #$^@ up the kids!" (I will never forget that line.)
By the time it gets to blows, you've had your whole effing sense of reality stolen from you. In the beginning, you think - maybe if I just try a little harder, I can make him happy. If I just try to change like he wants, he'll not get so mad so often. And you try. And for a while it works. Your hope and happiness rise again. Then he finds something else. Spiral down. And you try again on that one. Spiral up. And he finds something else. Spiral down. And it gets worse. And you continue to try to find that man you fell in love with. He's somewhere inside the maniac in front of you, if you could only *find* him, things would be good again.
If you still love him -- or the man he used to be -- you can spend months, years, and more years trying, over and over and over again to talk.
You think if *THIS TIME* you can just use the right words, the right tone, the right look on your face, your deference, your pleadings, your promises -- then he'll finally listen, he'll finally *get it* -- get what he's doing to you, doing to the kids. If you just try once more to explain, he'll stop screaming, stop breaking your things, stop hitting you, and will show you the love he used to show.
But he always has an excuse. "You made me mad. You're so weak, you cry all the time. I have to help you get better. I am the one who's right, you see? If you'd just do it my way, there wouldn't be a problem. I love you. I'm still here. Right? You can't live without me. You'll never make it. Come here to bed...."
After months, years, or decades, something will snap. Either your grasp on reality - and you stay and die (physically or emotionally), or your last straw of patience, and you dig down deep among the petrifying fear, and find that last shred of strength he didn't steal.
You hoard your strength, your meager courage, hoard the grocery money he gives you, make copies of important papers, and -- sometime when he's either drunk or working -- you pack and run.
But the fun's not over. Will he come after you? Will he find you? Do you ask from help from friends and family, knowing they might be hurt or killed? Will the shelter keep you safe? Food? Water? Job? Transportation? Safety, safety, safety! You KNOW what he's like when he's mad, and you're petrified.
Maybe it's better just to stay a while longer, give it one last try. The devil you know,.......
Leaving an abusive man takes an INCREDIBLE, FRIGHTENING, MASSIVE amount of courage. No one who hasn't been through it can know how much.
Thanks, Lima and 9MMare. And Lima is absolutely right that a woman still under the power of her abuser should not carry a gun unless she's *very* close to leaving. The risk is too great.
"I pledge allegiance to the war banner of the united states of Totalitaria. And to the Republic, which no longer stands, several bankers, who are now god, indivisible, with Bernanke bucks and credit for all."
June 5th, 2011 05:07 PM
More usually, the woman in question has been driven into a kind of psychosis, not unlike Stockholm Syndrome. The last part of the quote above is correct. We know from family systems theory that normally people try to achieve homeostasis within their domestic relationships. (Translation: family members adopt correcting behaviors in an attempt to return the family dynamic to normalcy.)
Problem is most of these abused women are nuts from what I have seen of calls. Itís a sick twisted relationship, but they seem to want to keep the status quo.
This is also observed in the case of "enabling" behaviors, when family members try to compensate for a person's addictions or maladaptive conduct.
In a case like the one presented by the OP, it is all-too-common for onlookers to offer "helpful" advice, like "she should just leave the abuser," or "she should get a gun and defend herself." Would that it were so simple.
The problem here is much deeper and far more complex than such simplistic solutions embrace. It is very common for the abused person to have constructed an impressively determined mindset as to why escape is impossible, why resistance is futile, and - worse - why the abused is really the one at fault. An intervention and even formal deprogramming may be necessary before the victim can even comprehend the reality of her situation, so pervasive are the effects of sustained battering and abuse.
To the outside world, the woman appears to be, well, crazy for staying in such a dysfunctional relationship. The solutions appear to be so obvious (get away, run for it, fight back, etc.). Gilraen's post is worth studying because it explains the process of victimization in detail. If you've ever tried to rescue a person who is suffering like this, then you know for a fact that it is not an easy thing to do. They are likely to view you as the enemy.
That said, it is morally wrong to do nothing. Report abuse to the authorities. Locate domestic violence resources and obtain professional help. Point the victim toward shelters and expert counselors who know how to help. Once the victim - or survivor, if you like - is free and thinking clearly and realistically, back on the road to health and self-esteem, then maybe you can talk about firearms and self-defense.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
June 5th, 2011 09:25 PM
A woman with a strong sense of self worth and purpose, whose logical mind can weigh facts to form decisions, is likely to end an unhealthy relationship before it becomes abusive. She would be feminine and nurturing yet conservative and principled. Without prodding, she will enroll in safety classes and get her permit to carry.
However, if her early environment, especially her father, does not instill this character, or worse, abuses her, she may be more likely to fall under the spell of an abuser. She would become adolescent and needy yet liberal and irrational. It would be futile to use reason against her vague feelings and fears to encourage her to introduce a deadly weapon into a certain future violent confrontation.
No, she must first extract and distance herself and her loved ones from the situation she has allowed to exacerbate. To do this she needs to recover her self esteem, emotional stability, and mental clarity. This is a very personal calling to find role models, movies, literature, and mentors that resonate with her. Before a traumatic event causes intervention, her best chance for epiphany is with a professional counselor.
When her determination blosoms, she can start saving and preparing for her escape without betraying her intentions. The safety class and permit are important prerequisites to obtaining her ultimate means of defense. At departure, she should have an injunction and protection order filed, and the commitment to protect her and her loved ones in their new environment with whatever means required, because it is not her fault. God bless her.
Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776
Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
-Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95
June 5th, 2011 09:55 PM
Abusers always cry...
They appeal to pity, they tug at the heartstrings.
They engage in emotional manipulation of the most amazing sort while the victims is suffering from bruises and abrasions
Their pitiful behavior actually makes the victim feel sorry and ashamed that she didn't try harder.
All the talk of the abused needing "more character" is raw BS. You are dealing with something that looks human but in actuality has the emotion depth of a lizard. And like a chameleon he's learned to mimic and camouflage in order to blend in and look like something normal.
The abuser has been like that for his entire life and is a keen observer of others emotions and finds whatever needs to be fed back so he can get what he wants
June 6th, 2011 10:17 AM
While I agree it sounds like this woman needs to get out of the relationship, the thing that struck me was that most of the post seemed to be more concerned with the fact that he wasn't allowing her to be better at the online game that the forum from the original post is dedicated to. It was almost like, hey, she's a great player and we need her to be at her best and he is distracting/restricting her gaming.
Geesh I half expected someone to suggest she frag him with an online gernade!
I totataly agree with Lima that if she isn't committed to leaving him, and protecting herself AT ALL COST then giving her a gun would be a mistake. As others have said many times the victum in these cases turns on the first responders, having a gun in the mix just makes it that much more deadly for all concerned. She needs to get out first, then get enough counciling to make her realize that she is not taking any more abuse from this scum bag. Then she can get some training and consider a gun to protect herself.
November 20th, 2011 07:02 PM
I believe it was John Farnam who coined the term "Virtuous Victimhood". The idea is that only by being a victim can one be truly virtuous. Search his Quips for "Victim by Choice".
November 20th, 2011 07:25 PM
Best to be a good compliant little victim.
It's the liberal way.
November 20th, 2011 10:40 PM
Very good post, I helped a girlfriend that worked with an agency helping woman escape abusers, I would go as my girlfriends Minder to help her get some of the women. Sadly despite the government setting them up at taxpayers cost in a new home, they would "invite" the abuser over within a couple of weeks. very frustrating. Once a woman has left and started setting up her life again, then CCW makes great sense as the restraining order is only good against people who are not likely to go all the way. Although for legal reasons they should still get one. As for Feminist organizations, promoting "victim-hood" is good business. If woman started being self-confident and protecting themselves imagine how many of the "voices" would be out of work?
Originally Posted by gunthorp
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