Other Side of the Coin - Page 2

Other Side of the Coin

This is a discussion on Other Side of the Coin within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I know that I am not obligated to come to the aid of anyone other than myself, but as a former LEO, I would have ...

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Thread: Other Side of the Coin

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array p8riot's Avatar
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    I know that I am not obligated to come to the aid of anyone other than myself, but as a former LEO, I would have a hard time NOT doing it. If an innocent individual died, and I had the means and the opportunity to prevent it I'd have to deal with that within myself. That's just the way I'm wired.
    "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone

    The second amendment is the reset button of our Constitution.


  2. #17
    Member Array Dumetre's Avatar
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    If I was carrying and could help a stranger I would feel morally obligated.

  3. #18
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    I cannot see anyone being forced to help. Good Samaritan laws protect untrained people from being sue if they help. it doesn't require someone to help.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  4. #19
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    What are our obligation?

    Quote Originally Posted by steve_db
    If the Supreme Court has ruled that the police have no obligation to protect you, then why would a court decide that you, as a ccw holder, have an obligation to protect someone.
    ianal, but in my opinion this would be thrown out of court.


    I do know of a case on the other side of the river from me that an LEO got into a fight with the person he was trying to arrest and was losing the fight. He there fore arrested a passerby for not jumping in to try to help him. Not sure what the court results were but this arrest made the local news.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSSZ
    I have absolutely NO obligation to protect anybody with my legally carried weapon.--------
    So long as society deems that its right to charge me negligent for use of self defense trumps my right to use it or not as I see fit (when attacked), I will withhold that defense of others until they come to the realization of the ultimate futility of that argument. Not holding my breath.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  6. #21
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    Dumetre, As you said,not legally bound,but morally ??? As individuals we all will have to decide this for ourselves. I already know what I would do. This given that I owe more to my wife than any stranger or indeed,any other person on the planet. I owe it to her to stay safe,sane,and/or out of jail.

    This brings another thing to mind. When undergoing EMT training we were told that as EMT's, while driving in our own vech, we NOT obligated to stop at the scene of a MVA. But if we did stop we WERE obligated to help the injured up to the extent of our training.

    Apply this to the CCW thing. If a BG visably had a weapon(say firearm),and he had made threats to kill the clerk during a hold-up,you presented your pistol/revo, but did not shoot him when given a very clear shot,would you/could you be legally charged with anything ?????($64K ?) ---------

  7. #22
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    Well, guys, I've got a confession to make. I'm a lawyer. I don't do much civil work (which is what we're talking about here, as opposed to criminal work), but the question presented here really stimulated my interest, so I hit the books and WESTLAW a little bit on it.

    Generally speaking, the answer is "NO", you aren't going to be found liable in damages for not coming to someone's defense with your legally carried weapon.

    There are some exceptions, and like exceptions to legal rules tend to be, they are things that we don't think of right off the tops of our heads, aren't readily apparent and are pretty rare.

    For the most part, the exceptions can be found in a hoary, old (or "venerable" if you prefer) legal compendium which is applicable through the common law in most of our 50 States called the "Restatement (Second) of Torts", particularly the sections beginning in the early 300's. Cited, if you are really interested, as "Restatement (Second) of Tort, Section 315" , for example.

    The chief class of exceptions are situations where you have undertaken a duty to protect someone based on some relationship you have with them, i.e., guardian and ward. There are a wide variety of those situations.

    I haven't done an exhaustive search on this issue, so I don't everything about it, or even most of what there is to know about it, but there is an open question in my mind as to what your potential liability is as a business owner who has customers ("invitees" or "licensees", I can't remember which) in your place of business.

    For instance, you are an anti and you own a business with a "no guns" sign on the door. Folks leave their guns in their cars to respect your rights/wishes as a property owner.

    Some madman comes in and guns a few of your customers down.

    I think a good case can be made that you might owe some of the estates of those customers some cold, hard cash because you stripped them of their ability to defend themselves, and by so doing you assumed that responsibility.

    Something like that happened in Texas following the massacre at a Luby's, I think.

    Anyway, that's my .02 on it.

  8. #23
    Member Array popo22's Avatar
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    Soundwave, post #13:
    One is intended to save a life, such as a "doctor, nurse, EMT" etc., in a life threatening situation. The other would impose the duty of "taking a life" (or at least the use of Deadly Force) in order to potentially save a life. I think there is a "Huge" gulf between the two. "Morally", ...tough issue.

    Ben Hennessey, post #19:
    In Texas the law does state a duty to assist a Peace Officer when ordered to (in making an arrest, etc.), but dosen't prescribe a penalty for refusing. I've never heard of anyone charged in this type of case.

    RSSZ, post #21:

    Interesting speculation, I don't know if you could be charged "Criminally", but I could see a good "Civil Attorney" making the claim that you (with the displayed firearm) caused the situation to escalate, thereby causing the "BG" to shoot the victim.
    A Wise Man Changes His Mind, but a Fool Never Does

  9. #24
    Member Array soundwave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randytulsa2
    I think a good case can be made that you might owe some of the estates of those customers some cold, hard cash because you stripped them of their ability to defend themselves, and by so doing you assumed that responsibility.
    Now I never even thought about it that way, but I think that is a very, very good legal point right there.

  10. #25
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    If I remember right the LEO did request help from the bystander and the bystander did not help. I never heard of this happening also, I think that is why it made the local news.

  11. #26
    Member Array soundwave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by popo22
    Ben Hennessey, post #19:
    In Texas the law does state a duty to assist a Peace Officer when ordered to (in making an arrest, etc.), but dosen't prescribe a penalty for refusing. I've never heard of anyone charged in this type of case.
    In Arizona it's a Class 1 misdemeanor (just under felony) to refuse or fail to aid a peace officer when requested (ARS 13-2403). I'm sure if someone gets nailed with this one would also get a slew of other things including refusing to obey a lawful command by a peace officer, etc.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundwave
    Now I never even thought about it that way, but I think that is a very, very good legal point right there.
    Agreed ... I've often wondered if those who would deprive you of your right to self defense, would now have to accept responsibility for defending you? I know this doesn't apply to the governments but how about private companies/businesses?

    I deplore the thought of depending on someone else for defense, but, in most states, going into a school, municipal building, professional sporting event, business with a sign, etc., means you can't be armed. Are those places now responsible .. I doubt it.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    as the Honorable randytulsa2 stated , at this point there is no Precedent set . Now folks , Randy knows more about it than me , I don't have a shingle to hang out on criminal or civil cases LOL . However Personally I feel that its only a matter of time until this suit is brought , most likely against an off duty officer . IMHO this will likely address not only the powers and duty's of an off duty armed officer but also the duty's of anyone who has the ability to stop a crime by action . ( astute readers of the post will note I left out CCW as a requirement . ) anyway just my thoughts since I have seen suits for less sensical reasons LOL .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  14. #29
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    We're getting way beyond the scope of my knowledge (as well as the topic of this particular thread), but one thing that would factor into the equation here is whether the madman was a known threat, first to any particular individual, and second, to the public at large, and whether you knew it....

    Another thing to think about here is the fact that just because you didn't do anything wrong, or just because the suit gets thrown out, doesn't mean that it wasn't brought in the first place

    i.e., you can be sued for anything or nothing....the guy suing you may lose, quickly and decisively, but not until you get served with a summons and pay money to have someone go file the paperwork to get the !@#@$ thing thrown out.

    It looks bad on background checks and credit reports to have been sued, even if it was thrown out because it was legally baseless.

    Don't you love the legal system?

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Hmm Randy , You could be right , I was looking at it from a standpoint of almost negligence tho as you having the ability to take action to stop limit harm and not doing it . As stated tho I expect any precedent to be brought on an off duty , out of jurisdiction or not , and the decision to apply to not only his official capacity as an officer , but to his ability as having training and a weapon . Under these circumstances prior knowledge would not be a factor as I understand it I sure could be wrong on this tho .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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