Self-Defense Shield

This is a discussion on Self-Defense Shield within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Sounds like Car Insurance,we will insure you as long as you are not at fault,if you are deemed at fault,then we will smile and say ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Sounds like Car Insurance,we will insure you as long as you are not at fault,if you are deemed at fault,then we will smile and say you should have read the fine print
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  3. #32
    Member Array mfcmb's Avatar
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    Some thoughts:

    * I am a member of the ACLDN and I have a firearms self-defense insurance policy through MMD Brokers.

    * Self-Defense Shield seems to be combining the features of both into one service.

    * The ACLDN is *NOT* insurance. It's completely different, and in many ways better. Here are things they do that no insurance will do:

    1. If you're the shooter in a self-defense shooting they will immediately provide funds to hire a lawyer. (Almost all lawyers will want a $5,000 to $10,000 up-front payment as a retainer before they'll agree to represent you. The ACLDN provides this for you.)

    2. If you can't find a lawyer locally, or if your lawyer needs help figuring out what to do (e.g. hiring your own private detective to collect your own evidence) someone will fly out to help you.

    3. If their advisory board reviews your case and in their opinion it APPEARS to be a righteous shoot, they will provide money, up front, to fund your defense. The advisory board is not a faceless set of MBA-toting executives, but persons who are professionally involved with teaching armed citizens how to defend themselves and who in many cases have experience acting as expert witnesses on behalf of armed citizens. There's no fixed limit to what they will provide, but it will only be a portion of the amount in the legal defense fund, which at present has more than $100,000 if I recall correctly, so that they don't spend it all on only one case.

    4. The ACLDN will also, if possible, provide ongoing assistance; such as advising your lawyer (who may well need it) and providing resources such as referrals to expert witnesses.

    * An insurance policy will only REIMBURSE you for approved expenses and only AFTER you are ACQUITTED. This is true for the NRA insurance and the MMD Brokers' insurance; and probably for the Self-Defense Shield's insurance component. That's fine, but where do you get the $100,000 that it typically costs to mount a criminal defense? Or do you even have $5,000 lying around as an attorney retainer to get you started?

    * Like many of you I am turned off by the USCCA's hyperbolic communications style, but their magazine is full of good info, and I think Tim (the founder) is sincere in wanting to support armed citizens. I think that the Self-Defense Shield is another step in an ever-expanding array of ways he's trying to do this. It COULD be a very good thing. But only time will tell.

    * As far as costs, my ACLDN membership is $85/year, and my MMD Brokers insurance is $340/yr (in the same ballpark as the NRA-sponsored self defense insurance, and with greater benefits), and so far the Self-Defense Shield program seems in the same ballpark.
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    In the heat of the moment, what matters is what your body knows -- not what your mind knows.

  4. #33
    RKM
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    I've often feared the aftermath of a self-defense shooting so much that I've debated even carrying. So far it hasn't stopped me, because I've made such a habit out of carrying. I can't stand to leave the house without a form of last resort self defense . Of course the possibility of taking a human life scares the hell out of me, the time in court afterward scares me more than anything.

    It sounds like a good idea, but seems gimmicky. I often look towards the Armed Citizen's Network. I more so just hope I never have to act in self defense, but if I do, it is a 100% clear cut case. I think "I'm a reasonable person, I won't act unless I legitimately fear for my life". Simple enough. Convincing somebody might prove to be difficult. Who knows who the jurors will be.

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfcmb View Post
    Some thoughts:

    * I am a member of the ACLDN and I have a firearms self-defense insurance policy through MMD Brokers.

    * Self-Defense Shield seems to be combining the features of both into one service.
    Sort of... except that the "up front fees" from ACLDN are a given (automatic, near as I can tell) Where the "up front fees" from Defense Shield seem to be in the form of a "grant." The way each handles things seems to be in opposite order. They compliment each other well in that regard (*see below).

    Quote Originally Posted by mfcmb View Post
    * The ACLDN is *NOT* insurance. It's completely different, and in many ways better. Here are things they do that no insurance will do:

    1. If you're the shooter in a self-defense shooting they will immediately provide funds to hire a lawyer. (Almost all lawyers will want a $5,000 to $10,000 up-front payment as a retainer before they'll agree to represent you. The ACLDN provides this for you.)
    Agreed, that seems to be what they (ACLDN) guarantee to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by mfcmb View Post
    2. If you can't find a lawyer locally, or if your lawyer needs help figuring out what to do (e.g. hiring your own private detective to collect your own evidence) someone will fly out to help you.
    I cannot find any statement that they will fly out to help you... only that they will respond. I understand that they have in the past, gone to the location, but there does not seem to be any guarantee to that effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by mfcmb View Post
    3. If their advisory board reviews your case and in their opinion it APPEARS to be a righteous shoot, they will provide money, up front, to fund your defense. The advisory board is not a faceless set of MBA-toting executives, but persons who are professionally involved with teaching armed citizens how to defend themselves and who in many cases have experience acting as expert witnesses on behalf of armed citizens. There's no fixed limit to what they will provide, but it will only be a portion of the amount in the legal defense fund, which at present has more than $100,000 if I recall correctly, so that they don't spend it all on only one case.
    The only guaranteed (as I read their policies) up front money is the $5K for a misdemeanor charge and $10K for a felony charge. The advisory board seems to be made up of the same type of people in both organizations (ACLDN and DS), and even a couple of the same names. But I have heard that Mas Ayoob has actually been involved in expert testimony in a case that was "covered" by the ACLDN membership.

    A "portion" of $100,000 may not be enough to help with a legal defense for the duration of a trial... Even the $5-10K will not go far with defense attorney's fees well over $300.00 per hour. The initial meeting at the jail alone may chew up $1,000 or more.

    Quote Originally Posted by mfcmb View Post
    4. The ACLDN will also, if possible, provide ongoing assistance; such as advising your lawyer (who may well need it) and providing resources such as referrals to expert witnesses.
    "If possible" and expert witnesses can cost $$$ which will bite into that "portion" of the defense fund.

    Quote Originally Posted by mfcmb View Post
    * An insurance policy will only REIMBURSE you for approved expenses and only AFTER you are ACQUITTED. This is true for the NRA insurance and the MMD Brokers' insurance; and probably for the Self-Defense Shield's insurance component. That's fine, but where do you get the $100,000 that it typically costs to mount a criminal defense? Or do you even have $5,000 lying around as an attorney retainer to get you started?
    And, you are wise to have both ACLDN and your MMD Brokers' insurance for those very reasons.
    The ACLDN will cover the first $5-10K apparently without much doubt. Your insurance, if you are acquitted will cover the rest... And you may even get help covering some of those expenses during the ordeal from ACLDN.

    Quote Originally Posted by mfcmb View Post
    * Like many of you I am turned off by the USCCA's hyperbolic communications style, but their magazine is full of good info, and I think Tim (the founder) is sincere in wanting to support armed citizens. I think that the Self-Defense Shield is another step in an ever-expanding array of ways he's trying to do this. It COULD be a very good thing. But only time will tell.
    ^^^ I agree 100% with this... ^^^

    Quote Originally Posted by mfcmb View Post
    * As far as costs, my ACLDN membership is $85/year, and my MMD Brokers insurance is $340/yr (in the same ballpark as the NRA-sponsored self defense insurance, and with greater benefits), and so far the Self-Defense Shield program seems in the same ballpark.
    Not knowing the limit on your MMD Brokers insurance, this seems to be a "safe" way to try to CYA in the event of a self defense shooting.

    I really appreciate your posting of this information... It helps to be able to compare some of the options.

    (*from above)

    mfcmb seems to have the right idea here... the bottom line is that if you want to protect yourself against the aftermath of a SD shooting, neither Defense Shield, nor ACLDN, (nor mfcmb's MMD insurance) alone will cover you 100% (from the actual incident through the entire process) if you should have to defend yourself.

    ACLDN appears to cover the first $5-10,000 which is critical to getting you defended immediately following a SD incident. But, the remaining expenses MAY NOT BE COVERED AT ALL, though I'm sure they have good intentions, and would probably help in any way they are able, including the possibility of grants to further fund your defense.

    Defense Sheild may grant you money up front... but there is an application process for a grant... If you are arrested, there may be no time for the paperwork to clear, to even get you out on bail in a timely manner. But, if in the long run, you are acquitted... you would be reimbursed for normal expenses incurred in your defense (less what grants you got from Defense Shield).

    I know this has been a long discussion... But, I have been considering both ACLDN and Defense Shield. So it has been very educational and mfcmb's post sheds a lot of light on both.

    The honest bottom line for me is that there is no perfect solution. Both ACLDN and Defense Shield seem to be good products that fill in each other's gaps.. but not all the gaps.

    In my state, you can be legally right, morally right, and yet civilly liable. Defending a SD shooting could easily cost more than both coverages could provide, unless it was cut and dried, open and shut; in your favor from the moment the SD incident occurred. But if there was any doubt, requiring legal defense, you could easily incur over $200,000 in lawyer fees, expert witness fees, and so on. To say NOTHING of lost time from work, etc..

    As mfcmb said above, " That's fine, but where do you get the $100,000 that it typically costs to mount a criminal defense? Or do you even have $5,000 lying around as an attorney retainer to get you started?"

    no kidding...
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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  6. #35
    New Member Array Leesdalk's Avatar
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    Uscca defense shield insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    I think that they are playing on peoples fears in order to make a profit. For some it might be worth it. Not for me.

    The fact that the prices aren't readily available gives me pause.
    So Farron wolf,....you have life insurance, auto insurance, health insurance, but think uscca is just playing on people's fears? Like no one gets sued when they have to protect themselves even justifiably. That's fine don't get the coverage. I just hope you have very deep pockets if you have to defend yourself. just because the police say it was justified doesn't mean your not going to get sued. Jeesh.

    If you go to their web site the prices, 3 of them are very easily seen. $300 year is the highest.
    Up until Monday no one has even heard of this kind of coverage, but now all of a sudden, uscca is plaing on people's fears. Unbelievable

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leesdalk View Post
    ...
    Up until Monday no one has even heard of this kind of coverage, but now all of a sudden, uscca is plaing on people's fears. Unbelievable
    ACLDN is similar... and apparently MMD Brokers offers a similar package... so it's not really "NEW"... But, I have to say even as a member of USCCA myself, Tim's marketing is "over the top" on a lot of things he sells.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKM View Post
    I've often feared the aftermath of a self-defense shooting so much that I've debated even carrying. So far it hasn't stopped me, because I've made such a habit out of carrying. I can't stand to leave the house without a form of last resort self defense . Of course the possibility of taking a human life scares the hell out of me, the time in court afterward scares me more than anything.

    It sounds like a good idea, but seems gimmicky. I often look towards the Armed Citizen's Network. I more so just hope I never have to act in self defense, but if I do, it is a 100% clear cut case. I think "I'm a reasonable person, I won't act unless I legitimately fear for my life". Simple enough. Convincing somebody might prove to be difficult. Who knows who the jurors will be.


    ^^^^^^^I tend to agree^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


    Everyone should check your STATE LAWS and regulations as to if/when you are forced to use deadly force against someone.

    It seems Michigan has it right, {as does a few others} in protecting against wrongful charges and frivolous civil suits, as cited below in Michigan law;


    MCL 600.2922b, MCL 600.2922c, &
    MCL 777.21c
    The Self-Defense Act
    Effective October 1, 2006
    Public Acts 309 – 314 of 2006 comprise the “Self-Defense Act.” The Act affects criminal and civil liability for those who use force to defend themselves or others. Prior to this Act, the law of self-defense was gleaned primarily from the common law (judge-made law).
    General Provisions of the Act
    A person may use deadly force with no duty to retreat if (PA 309):
    1. They are not engaged in a crime
    2. They are in a place they have a legal right to be
    3. They honestly and reasonably believe deadly force is necessary
    4. The deadly force is used to prevent imminent death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault of the person or another
    A person may use force other than deadly force if (PA 309):
    1. They are not engaged in a crime
    2. They are in a place they have a legal right to be
    3. They honestly and reasonably believe force is necessary
    4. The force is used to prevent imminent unlawful force against the person or another
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  9. #38
    Member Array oldglockfan's Avatar
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    Has anyone done a real in-depth comparison between the new USCCA Self Defense Shield package and the MMD Brokers plan? I'd love to know how the two really stack up with each other. I'm sure there are similarities and differences, but sometimes it's real hard to figure out just what those are without a side-by-side "nuts and bolts" comparison.

  10. #39
    Member Array mfcmb's Avatar
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    July 18 2010 I posted a comparison of the MMD Brokers insurance to the NRA self defense insurance. Here's the link:

    Self Defense Fiscal Strategy and Insurance

    This might give anyone who wishes to do a comparison with the insurance component of Self Defense Shield some ideas of what provisions to compare. (I'm not going to do it any time soon since I just renewed my MMD Brokers insurance for another year.
    In the heat of the moment, what matters is what your body knows -- not what your mind knows.

  11. #40
    Member Array mfcmb's Avatar
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    oakchas: I understand your comments and thoughts, but in a way I think you're being impractical in your approach to evaluating the ACLDN. There's nothing on the market that can guarantee that all your costs will be paid and all your problems will go away if you have to use a firearm in self defense; all you can do is play the odds in figuring out how much benefit you can get, what the chances are of actually obtaining that benefit, whether it will benefit you in time to do any good, and how much that's going to cost.

    Even if you get a $250,000 insurance policy, like I have with MMD Brokers, where the policy makes a number of promises, there are so many escape hatches for the insurance underwriters that it's a crap shoot as to what, if any, benefits you'll really get if you have to use the policy (MMD Brokers is not unique in this regard: the NRA insurance has much the same set of provisos, and I expect Self Defense Shield to have them as well).

    The ACLDN on the other hand is not insurance. It is, if you will, a support group run by industry professionals who sincerely want to help citizens who use firearms in self defense to survive the legal aftermath in the best possible shape (financially, emotionally, socially, etc.). Even if they "only" fund the retainer for your lawyer, and "only" provide phone support for lawyers who may not be experts at mounting self defense cases, and "only" provide you a set of training DVDs giving members training from experts on a variety of relevant and meaningful topics (they've produced 4 so far, and more are in the works), and even if they "only" feel they can afford to apply a few 10's of thousands of dollars out of their legal defense fund to help with your particular case, for $85 a year it's a no-brainer IMHO.
    DoctorBob and MikeN25 like this.
    In the heat of the moment, what matters is what your body knows -- not what your mind knows.

  12. #41
    Member Array RockBottom's Avatar
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    I've got Pre-Paid Legal. That's my equivalent of having a "lawyer on retainer". I've not used them for much, but I've been happy so far. The member firm that I've been using has been very good. That being said, if your butt is on the line and you really need a criminal defence attorney, I wouldn't count on $115 a year buying you much of a lawyer.

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfcmb View Post
    oakchas: I understand your comments and thoughts, but in a way I think you're being impractical in your approach to evaluating the ACLDN. There's nothing on the market that can guarantee that all your costs will be paid and all your problems will go away if you have to use a firearm in self defense; all you can do is play the odds in figuring out how much benefit you can get, what the chances are of actually obtaining that benefit, whether it will benefit you in time to do any good, and how much that's going to cost.

    Even if you get a $250,000 insurance policy, like I have with MMD Brokers, where the policy makes a number of promises, there are so many escape hatches for the insurance underwriters that it's a crap shoot as to what, if any, benefits you'll really get if you have to use the policy (MMD Brokers is not unique in this regard: the NRA insurance has much the same set of provisos, and I expect Self Defense Shield to have them as well).

    The ACLDN on the other hand is not insurance. It is, if you will, a support group run by industry professionals who sincerely want to help citizens who use firearms in self defense to survive the legal aftermath in the best possible shape (financially, emotionally, socially, etc.). Even if they "only" fund the retainer for your lawyer, and "only" provide phone support for lawyers who may not be experts at mounting self defense cases, and "only" provide you a set of training DVDs giving members training from experts on a variety of relevant and meaningful topics (they've produced 4 so far, and more are in the works), and even if they "only" feel they can afford to apply a few 10's of thousands of dollars out of their legal defense fund to help with your particular case, for $85 a year it's a no-brainer IMHO.
    I agree with you 100% I am not disparaging ACLDN... I think that they provide a valuable service for the $85 membership. The retainer coverage of $5-10K is the "up front" money anyone involved in a SD incident with a firewarm may need to procure the services of a lawyer... As you pointed out in your other thread regarding MMD vs. NRA insurance and as I pointed out above... I think that the best "hope" one can have, is a two layered defense including ACLDN and one of the three others (MMD, Defense Shield, or NRA insurance).

    Most of the gun carrying community will not opt for any of the protections afforded by any of these, and will hope for the best. Some will not be able to afford any of the protections.

    IMO, probably the least one should do, if they can afford it, is probably ACLDN. At the very least, their funds will get you "lawyered up" immediately...

    My original intent was to demonstrate that Defense Shield was not junk just because it was over hyped. All of the others (NRA, MMD) will reimburse you for your expenses after you are acquitted.

    Unless you have very deep pockets, or ACLDN has awarded a grant and covered some of your expenses... you may be so broke that reimbursement is moot, because you have had to, in the end, use a public defender because you could not otherwise afford your own attorney (having had to sell everything you own to defend yourself).
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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  14. #43
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    People who are too stooopid to attend a Massad Ayoob or John Farnam class on the lawful use of lethal force need this product.

    People who are too stooopid to train in force on force so that they have practice applying what they learned in an Ayoob/Farnam class need this product.

    People who are too stooopid to understand that the use of force is something that needs to be trained in context need this product.

    Unfortunatly...that's a lot of people.

    If you aren't smart enought to get training, get insurance and hope for the best.

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    People who are too stooopid to attend a Massad Ayoob or John Farnam class on the lawful use of lethal force need this product.

    People who are too stooopid to train in force on force so that they have practice applying what they learned in an Ayoob/Farnam class need this product.

    People who are too stooopid to understand that the use of force is something that needs to be trained in context need this product.

    Unfortunatly...that's a lot of people.

    If you aren't smart enought to get training, get insurance and hope for the best.
    Ahem, I resent that. How about those of us who don't have the time or money to get training? I heartily resent being called stupid for not getting training like that. I simply do not have the time or the money to do so right now. So please, refrain from such generalizations.
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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    People who are too stooopid to attend a Massad Ayoob or John Farnam class on the lawful use of lethal force need this product.

    People who are too stooopid to train in force on force so that they have practice applying what they learned in an Ayoob/Farnam class need this product.

    People who are too stooopid to understand that the use of force is something that needs to be trained in context need this product.

    Unfortunatly...that's a lot of people.

    If you aren't smart enought to get training, get insurance and hope for the best.
    As I'm sure you are well aware, people can and do sue people for just about any reason every day. Ask any doctor (even those with oodles and oodles of training) That's probably why they carry insurance, wouldn't you think counselor?
    DoctorBob likes this.

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