Carrying Where it is not "authorized", but not illegal... - Page 4

Carrying Where it is not "authorized", but not illegal...

This is a discussion on Carrying Where it is not "authorized", but not illegal... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Suppose it depends on the situation. Would have to weigh the probability of violence at work, with how much one values the job. Pizza delivery ...

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Thread: Carrying Where it is not "authorized", but not illegal...

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array Devilsclaw's Avatar
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    Suppose it depends on the situation. Would have to weigh the probability of violence at work, with how much one values the job. Pizza delivery job would weigh in differently than physical therapist, know what I mean?


  2. #47
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    ...The statistical likelihood that I'll need to defend myself with deadly force in my office is almost incalculably remote. The chance I am "outed" and terminated is significantly quite higher....
    Why do I carry? To reduce the risks to my family. But the risks to them due to loss of income and medical insurance are greater than the risk from some bad guy. I prefer to carry always, but I need to put my family first. The cards come up "Don't carry at work' for me.
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  3. #48
    Member Array jmiked's Avatar
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    We have a no carry policy at work to keep the Insurance company happy! Everyone (including the boss) has something in the vehicle and the boss has no problem with carry while we are on the road (different Insurance policy) in fact encourages it!

    We also have high security badge reader systems on all the doors!
    William Wallace
    Do not stand between Me and Mine!!

  4. #49
    Ex Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZTF Hitman View Post
    "The right of the people to keep AND BEAR arms, shall not be infringed." US Constitution, 1776. Amendment II, ratified 1791
    With this in mind, who's right and who's wrong? The lawfully armed citizen?? Or the establishment that asks him to suspend that Constitutional Right, at their leisure??
    You forgot to post the first part of that amendment. But you also fail to understand that a property owner can prevent people from exercising their rights on their property. Can I walk into a store and have a religious ceremony? Can I just start having a political rally in an office building if they don't want me to? Can I go into my employers office and start exercising my first amendment rights?

  5. #50
    Senior Member Array Tala's Avatar
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    Well, the corporate policy is no guns, but the owner is cool with it. I'm not afraid of getting fired unless I have to shoot. So yep I carry at work "against policy"
    I've also carried places where the signage simply said "no firearms" because the law says it must say "carrying a concealed weapon is prohibited" --- I've only seen the legal sign in a couple of places. One at the police department obviously, but it shares a building with the utility billing so I have disarm if I go to pay my bill. Saw another "proper" sign outside a manufacturing company building, but I don't work there or have business there, so it's no issue.

    For those who say we should "just get another job" instead of breaking the rules, well, try it. Any major chain company has insurance that usually require them to have a no guns policy somewhere. Sorry to say it, but there just aren't THAT many small private companies for all of us to work for and small companies need insurance too. Insurance liability hasn't stopped any bad guys from shooting employees.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them. -- John Wayne as John B. Books in "The Shootist"

  6. #51
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    I think it really depends on your personal risk assessment of the environment and what you really think the consequences of losing your job would be with today's economy and jobless numbers.

    I think one really has to consider the financial hardship on their family if one were to lose their particular income if there are few potentials for obtaining another job in your particular marketplace.

    That said, I'm all for personal responsibility and choosing to be extremely discrete as long as you are not in violation of your state or federal law. I won't advocate, nor does the forum rules allow to advocate violating the statutory laws of the land or your particular jurisdiction. But a company's corporate policy is a whole other animal.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  7. #52
    Ex Member Array apvbguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    If you want to talk about 'rights of property owners' then let's talk about what those rights actually are. In my state, the right you are referring to is the right to screen people who enter property (such as a metal detector) and the right to trespass someone who is on their property. There is no 'right to ban firearms by sign'. On the other hand, people in my state do, in fact, have the right to carry concealed weapons onto private property. They retain this right, regardless of signs posted, papers signed, spoken words, et cetera.

    These are the rules -- constructed by the people of my state for a specific purpose -- and if you don't like it, there's 49 other states to choose from. There are some states in which property owners do have a legal right to ban firearms with a sign. Blanket statement fantasies about 'rights of property owners' are incorrect.
    you're right the no gun sign is in many states irrelevant other than that it warns you that the property owner does not want guns on his property.
    you are free in many states to ignore signs that say no guns however the property owner retains the right to ask you to leave if he finds out you are carrying a gun.
    In fla if you refuse to leave a property after being asked to you will be charged with a felony, armed trespass.
    this is not a fantasy this is reality, property owners have a right to allow or disallow any activity on their property, thinking that your right to carry a gun usurps their right to regulate activity on their property is your fantasy.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Please refer to your CHL booklet for your answer. If they have told you firearms aren't allowed in the workplace verbally, or have the appropriate language in the employee handbook. You might be commiting a Class A misdemeanor. Being fired might be the least of your worries. Having your CHL revoked for 5 years might be a bit harder to stomach.

    This is dependent entirely on how you were notified. Be very careful.
    If you are truely just breaking company policy then the call is up to you and how much the job means to your livelyhood.
    You are correct, however, said employee handbook MUST have the proper language to be a legal notification. Lets say that the policy simply states "no gun will be brought on to company property" (which is a direct quote from my employee handbook). According to Texas state law (which is where the CHL handbook comes from), this is not a legal notification, and therefore has no legal ramifications should I chose to break the company policy.

  9. #54
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OperatorJ View Post
    You are correct, however, said employee handbook MUST have the proper language to be a legal notification. Lets say that the policy simply states "no gun will be brought on to company property" (which is a direct quote from my employee handbook). According to Texas state law (which is where the CHL handbook comes from), this is not a legal notification, and therefore has no legal ramifications should I chose to break the company policy.
    As long as during the hiring process or any time after that no one has ever told you that no guns were allowed on the property verbally, then you won't be breaking the law. If they have, that is a another animal.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  10. #55
    Member Array SirNapsAlot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OperatorJ View Post
    You are correct, however, said employee handbook MUST have the proper language to be a legal notification. Lets say that the policy simply states "no gun will be brought on to company property" (which is a direct quote from my employee handbook). According to Texas state law (which is where the CHL handbook comes from), this is not a legal notification, and therefore has no legal ramifications should I chose to break the company policy.
    Can you clarify? Are you talking about criminal prosecution or any adverse reaction?

    They can most certainly still fire you, especially in Texas where they can let you go for just about any reason.
    - SNA -

    "Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have" -- Ronald Reagan

  11. #56
    Member Array OperatorJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirNapsAlot View Post
    Can you clarify? Are you talking about criminal prosecution or any adverse reaction?

    They can most certainly still fire you, especially in Texas where they can let you go for just about any reason.
    In this "situation", no adverse legal action could be taken against you. But you are absolutely correct, you could be terminated.

    There is a very fine line that is being walked in this "scenario". You need to read and understand the law... but you also need to research how that law has been interpreted by the courts that you may be sitting in front of given various situations. I think that last part is left out a lot in discussions like this. I may determine that the 2A says "...shall not be infringed..." meaning by government, employer, or property owner, or any other individual or entity... but if thats not how the courts view it, then it doesn't really matter when the bullets stop flying and it's time to go before the courts to justify why you were carrying in the first place.

  12. #57
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apvbguy View Post
    you're right the no gun sign is in many states irrelevant other than that it warns you that the property owner does not want guns on his property.
    you are free in many states to ignore signs that say no guns however the property owner retains the right to ask you to leave if he finds out you are carrying a gun.
    In fla if you refuse to leave a property after being asked to you will be charged with a felony, armed trespass.
    this is not a fantasy this is reality, property owners have a right to allow or disallow any activity on their property, thinking that your right to carry a gun usurps their right to regulate activity on their property is your fantasy.
    I'll say it, once again -- there is no magical right to ban firearms from private property in my state. It's not a question of one right 'usurping' another. The 'other' simply does not exist. There is only a right to trespass people. This is your means of disallowing legal behavior.

    For example, let's imagine that you own some land and you invite me over to shoot some pistols, because we're DC buddies. For what ever reason, let's assume that you hate cell phones and have a "No Cell Phones!" sign posted on your property. When I arrive, I see the sign and think "I'd rather not leave it in my car on the street, someone might steal it...", so I keep it in my pocket and proceed to shoot with you and we both have a blast. My cell phone rings while we're setting up new targets and I see your face turn beet red. What are your [legal] options at this point?

    You certainly cannot confiscate my cell phone, you can't arrest me, you can't charge me with a crime. The only thing that you can really do is trespass me. There is no 'right to ban cell phones'. Or bubblegum, or hairy legs, OR GUNS. If you don't want cell phones on your property, you should screen people before they enter, and deny access if they have a cell phone. You've got to take initiative action in order to keep them off of your property. It doesn't happen by psychic force field.

    You've got to ask yourself "Why is it that people in his state have a right to keep and bear arms that is specifically enumerated in both the state and federal constitutions?" "Why is it that property owners in his state do not have a right to ban firearms (or cell phones, or bubblegum) with a sign?" "Why must I take initiative to screen people who enter my property?" The answer is that these are the rules, designed by the People, with a specific purpose. Here is the logic: If you feel very strongly about keeping something off of your property, you can stop people from entering, but if it's not important enough for you to take some action, then it must not be important enough to bother infringing on the freedoms of the People.

    I like this system very much, because it is a sort of 'free market' of rights -- the 'price' is negotiated by both parties and if they can't come to an agreement, no 'transaction' is made. This is just how we do things in my state, and if you don't like it, there are states in which property owners can ban guns by posting a sign. That is the real beauty of having 50 states to choose from -- you can find a way of doing things that suits you best. What you cannot do, however, is create imaginary rights of property owners, and expect people to give two scats about them.

  13. #58
    Member Array SirNapsAlot's Avatar
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    State and Fed Constitutions restrain the Government and their actions. Baring a few exceptions, that all ends once someone comes into my home. The Second Amendment, or any Amendment for that matter, does not apply to how someone runs their household and makes no difference what state you live in. States and governments do not grant rights. Rights are already there unless specifically restrained by legislation.

    I can limit speech, what religion is practiced, search a child's bedroom sans warrant, harbor a soldier, tell my fiancee she owes me taxes (that would never fly!), make unilateral decisions with no vote, etc ....

    You most certainly can ban anything, including guns, from your property.
    - SNA -

    "Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have" -- Ronald Reagan

  14. #59
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirNapsAlot View Post
    State and Fed Constitutions restrain the Government and their actions. Baring a few exceptions, that all ends once someone comes into my home. The Second Amendment, or any Amendment for that matter, does not apply to how someone runs their household and makes no difference what state you live in. States and governments do not grant rights. Rights are already there unless specifically restrained by legislation.

    I can limit speech, what religion is practiced, search a child's bedroom sans warrant, harbor a soldier, tell my fiancee she owes me taxes (that would never fly!), make unilateral decisions with no vote, etc ....

    You most certainly can ban anything, including guns, from your property.
    While guns can be banned with a sign in Texas, they cannot in many other states. You've clearly misunderstood my entire post.

    How exactly do you ban something such as bubble gum, in Texas? By posting a sign by the door? And if someone brings bubble gum, the Police will come to arrest them? I really doubt it. In my state, you would have to trespass them first (formally ask them to leave the property), before the Police can arrest them.

    Maybe you should ban illegal aliens... Problem solved.

  15. #60
    Ex Member Array apvbguy's Avatar
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    no, you are trying to split hairs with circular arguments, a property owner has a right to ban almost any unwanted activity on his property.
    if the method used to ensure compliance is trespassing them so be it the result is the same, guns are not going to be permitted on his property regardless of your right to
    carry one

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