Carrying Where it is not "authorized", but not illegal...

This is a discussion on Carrying Where it is not "authorized", but not illegal... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Tala Well, the corporate policy is no guns, but the owner is cool with it. I'm not afraid of getting fired unless ...

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Thread: Carrying Where it is not "authorized", but not illegal...

  1. #61
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tala View Post
    Well, the corporate policy is no guns, but the owner is cool with it. I'm not afraid of getting fired unless I have to shoot. So yep I carry at work "against policy"
    I've also carried places where the signage simply said "no firearms" because the law says it must say "carrying a concealed weapon is prohibited" --- I've only seen the legal sign in a couple of places. One at the police department obviously, but it shares a building with the utility billing so I have disarm if I go to pay my bill. Saw another "proper" sign outside a manufacturing company building, but I don't work there or have business there, so it's no issue.

    For those who say we should "just get another job" instead of breaking the rules, well, try it. Any major chain company has insurance that usually require them to have a no guns policy somewhere. Sorry to say it, but there just aren't THAT many small private companies for all of us to work for and small companies need insurance too. Insurance liability hasn't stopped any bad guys from shooting employees.
    So why not do the right thing and don't carry simply because the sign and property owners ask you to. Just because you legally can does not mean it is the right thing. That is like saying the only reason I don't murder someone is that it is against the law. But if it was legal, I would.

    As far as getting another job, once again if you agree to do something for a paycheck then you do it. One of those conditions is that you are unarmed. By taking the paycheck you are violating the company. You are correct it is probably an insurance thing, but nevertheless it is still their rules. You can always start your own business and not get insurance and allow firearms carry. No insurance liability has not stopped anybody, but it does not give you the right to do otherwise. Start your own business and explain to your insurance carrier how you wish to carry and allow employees to carry. See how much it costs. Also don't forget to think about if the company loses any business because someone felt uncomfortable with an employee or fellow customer carrying a firearm after being asked not to by a sign or policy? Is that fair to the company and the shareholders?

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  3. #62
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apvbguy View Post
    you're right the no gun sign is in many states irrelevant other than that it warns you that the property owner does not want guns on his property.
    you are free in many states to ignore signs that say no guns however the property owner retains the right to ask you to leave if he finds out you are carrying a gun.
    In fla if you refuse to leave a property after being asked to you will be charged with a felony, armed trespass.
    this is not a fantasy this is reality, property owners have a right to allow or disallow any activity on their property, thinking that your right to carry a gun usurps their right to regulate activity on their property is your fantasy.
    This is why I feel that signs and notification should always have a criminal penalty such as a loss of your permit if violating the law as outlined by the permit. It seems very hypocritical for gun owners to demand their rights be recognized but ignore the rights of the property owner to control their own property.

  4. #63
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    While guns can be banned with a sign in Texas, they cannot in many other states. You've clearly misunderstood my entire post.

    How exactly do you ban something such as bubble gum, in Texas? By posting a sign by the door? And if someone brings bubble gum, the Police will come to arrest them? I really doubt it. In my state, you would have to trespass them first (formally ask them to leave the property), before the Police can arrest them.

    Maybe you should ban illegal aliens... Problem solved.
    So using your logic, I can bring in pornography to your house even though dissaprove?

    You tell people that they are not allowed and if they bring an item in, the police do come and arrest them. You have informed them that they are not welcome into or on your property with bubblegum. The sign was the warning that they will be trespassed and arrested. Pretty simple, isn't it?

    What does illegal aliens have to do with this argument? It is irrelevant here.

  5. #64
    Member Array SirNapsAlot's Avatar
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    It's a semanticist argument. We are basically saying the same thing, but in different ways

    Where the argument fails is that in "his state", he has a legal right to carry in someones home and cannot be denied.

    Nothing is further from the truth.
    - SNA -

    "Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have" -- Ronald Reagan

  6. #65
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apvbguy View Post
    no, you are trying to split hairs with circular arguments, a property owner has a right to ban almost any unwanted activity on his property.
    if the method used to ensure compliance is trespassing them so be it the result is the same, guns are not going to be permitted on his property regardless of your right to
    carry one
    Wrong! The result is not the same at all. In states where signs legally ban guns from being brought on the property, someone may be instantly charged with a crime when they bring their gun. In my state, no such thing will happen.

    If you can't charge someone with a crime for doing the limbo dance on your property, then it really does not matter if you decree that it is a 'banned' activity. The 'ban' is a figment of your imagination, unless it has some real legal effect. You might as well ban tax collectors. That ought to save a few bucks.

    I realize this is counter-intuitive to someone who believes in common sense property rights, but you've got to remember that membership in society comes at the cost of following society's rules. When there is a rule that you don't like, you have an opportunity to change it or move to a place with different rules. As I have mentioned, I greatly enjoy the fact that I have a right to carry onto private property. This is my kinda state.

  7. #66
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirNapsAlot View Post
    It's a semanticist argument. We are basically saying the same thing, but in different ways

    Where the argument fails is that in "his state", he has a legal right to carry in someones home and cannot be denied.

    Nothing is further from the truth.
    Once again, you've misunderstood everything I've said. I'm simply saying that I cannot be charged with a crime in my state for carrying on private property, even if the owner imagines that he has a right to ban guns. If I can't be charged with a crime, then it is legal, and I 'have a right' to do it. Case closed.

    It has nothing to do with semantics and everything to do with black and white facts.

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    Member Array ZTF Hitman's Avatar
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    If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound???

    Carry CONCEALED....carry wisely, and (IMO) if you are not breaking the law, you are not doing anything wrong.

  9. #68
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    So using your logic, I can bring in pornography to your house even though dissaprove?
    Legally speaking, yes. How would I 'ban' it? Telling you or posting a sign has no legal effect (in my state). I can only ask you to leave, and call the police if you do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    You tell people that they are not allowed and if they bring an item in, the police do come and arrest them. You have informed them that they are not welcome into or on your property with bubblegum. The sign was the warning that they will be trespassed and arrested. Pretty simple, isn't it?
    While you might think things would be this way, they simply are not. It would be funny to overhear your conversation with the police in which you say "But, officer... He's chewing Bubbalicious and blowing bubbles right in my face!" The sign has no legal effect in my state. Asking him to leave does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    What does illegal aliens have to do with this argument? It is irrelevant here.
    It was a wisecrack, since y'all feel that banning something has a real effect.
    ZTF Hitman likes this.

  10. #69
    Member Array SirNapsAlot's Avatar
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    Ponderous minutiae to the 10th degree.
    - SNA -

    "Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have" -- Ronald Reagan

  11. #70
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirNapsAlot View Post
    Ponderous minutiae to the 10th degree.
    The whole truth includes minutiae by necessity, however ponderous. If you don't like the topic of the thread, there are others.

  12. #71
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    if there is a speed limit on the road you are driving on you are able to ignore it and more than likely nothing will happen but one day you might be caught and have a summons issued. you certainly are free to break the rules or laws, but then don't whine when you have to suffer the consequences.
    I know this critical thinking is not your strong suit, but it is the same as carrying your weapon where it isn't welcomed. I agree with you about how wrong it is for businesses and property owners to ban guns and I like you sometimes ignore such bans but I also realize that those people have their rights and it is not my right to violate their rights.

  13. #72
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apvbguy View Post
    if there is a speed limit on the road you are driving on you are able to ignore it and more than likely nothing will happen but one day you might be caught and have a summons issued. you certainly are free to break the rules or laws, but then don't whine when you have to suffer the consequences.
    I know this critical thinking is not your strong suit, but it is the same as carrying your weapon where it isn't welcomed. I agree with you about how wrong it is for businesses and property owners to ban guns and I like you sometimes ignore such bans but I also realize that those people have their rights and it is not my right to violate their rights.
    It's not the same... Speeding is against the law, while carrying on private property is not (in my state).

    If you're going to tout your critical thinking skills, then tell me what right is being violated?

  14. #73
    Senior Member Array mastercapt's Avatar
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    In Florida, if an establishment ha signage as to "no weapons" "No firearms" "No guns allowed", even though the wording may be off, it carries the right of the property owner/manager/ lesee, etc; to exclude carrying. If you are on their property, and asked to leave, refusal to do so is called armed trespassing. It does not matter if you have a permit ot not.
    ANY misnomeanor becomes a felony when a firearm is involved.
    There was a case a few years back, where an off duty cop went into a building and took some compute paper. Unbeknown to him, an alarnm system was installed that day, and he got caught. His sentence was 1 month for the petty theft, and 3 years for being armed during the "crime".
    So, would I carry in defiance to company policy? No. Would I have a gun in my locked car in a locked safe? You betcha.
    My line of work usually involves gov't contractors. Getting caught on premisis with a gun is a double whammie: Both state and federal laws broken. That said, the last place I worked was agov't contractor in a relitively bad neighborhood. I was in charge of the security and fire alarm systems. I told my boss and the company prez that if I had to respond to an off-hours alarm from home, I will be armed. They said "that once you get i the parking lot, leave it in the car, bacause the place with be crawling with cops, and be sure to have your company badge with you. DO not "clear" the building, let the cops do their thing" .

    I liked a video about Israeli soldier hitchhiking in uniform with an automatic weapon slung around his shoulder. The first car picked him up. Apparently, over there, having a gun is a way of life.

  15. #74
    Senior Member Array Tala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    So why not do the right thing and don't carry simply because the sign and property owners ask you to. Just because you legally can does not mean it is the right thing. That is like saying the only reason I don't murder someone is that it is against the law. But if it was legal, I would.

    As far as getting another job, once again if you agree to do something for a paycheck then you do it. One of those conditions is that you are unarmed. By taking the paycheck you are violating the company. You are correct it is probably an insurance thing, but nevertheless it is still their rules. You can always start your own business and not get insurance and allow firearms carry. No insurance liability has not stopped anybody, but it does not give you the right to do otherwise. Start your own business and explain to your insurance carrier how you wish to carry and allow employees to carry. See how much it costs. Also don't forget to think about if the company loses any business because someone felt uncomfortable with an employee or fellow customer carrying a firearm after being asked not to by a sign or policy? Is that fair to the company and the shareholders?
    Sure, I'll start my own business. Great idea right after I get done paying off these student loans. I gotta work to eat, but I also gotta LIVE to eat. YOUR job may not be that dangerous. For example my dad works for a state office and as far as I know no one has ever been killed at his office. While no one has been killed in MY particular store YET (we've only been there a year), just google shooting + pizza and see how many turn up, thousands I'm sure. Google the Benton AR Pizza Hut + robbery ---- we're practically across the street from them. Google Summit Bank Benton AR + robbery, it's practically in our parking lot and us managers walk the deposit up there every morning ---- local PD is still looking for the most recent robber. Maybe I should look for a safer job.....and I'm sure I won't be working pizza my whole life, but for now it's the only thing paying the bills.
    And apparently you MIS-READ my post. The franchise policy may be anti-gun, but the private PROPERTY OWNER is VERY pro-carry/pro-gun. If he asks me to leave, I will.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them. -- John Wayne as John B. Books in "The Shootist"

  16. #75
    Member Array shadow38's Avatar
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    not shore were to ask this? but what are the laws for cc ,at the atlanta zoo, the web site ,that i could see gave no clear answers. taking family tonight, 6/11/11. any info would be helpfull. thanx

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