Carrying Where it is not "authorized", but not illegal...

This is a discussion on Carrying Where it is not "authorized", but not illegal... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; After working for a real scum bag company , and hearing of other co workers being robbed and shot. I did carry every day I ...

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Thread: Carrying Where it is not "authorized", but not illegal...

  1. #91
    Senior Member Array Hot Wing's Avatar
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    After working for a real scum bag company , and hearing of other co workers being robbed and shot.

    I did carry every day I worked for that hole .

    I would have been fired if they knew

    But I would have had an empty mag or wheel if I had ever been robbed

    I have moved on from that company and the one I am at now as no problems with my carry
    Last edited by SIXTO; June 12th, 2011 at 04:16 PM.

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  3. #92
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apvbguy View Post
    why do some of you think that your right to carry a gun trumps someone's right to control activities on THEIR property?
    refusing to comply with simple requests and thinking your rights over rule someone else's rights is what is immoral
    Hello, McFly... The 'right to control activities' does not exist, here. That would require legal authority to arrest people who violate a property owner's 'laws'. I don't know of any country in the world in which a property owner can legally arrest a visitor for whatever reason they wish. Perhaps a Muslim country, with Sharia law? Heck, you might even be able to cut off your guest's hand for stealing cookies. That's not how we do things in the United States, though. Perhaps you should move to AfghaniPakIslaamistan.

    On the other hand the right to carry a gun does exist. It is a real right, with legal effect... so it's not a question of one right 'over-ruling' or 'trumping' another -- it's just that one thing is a right and the other is a sweet dream.

  4. #93
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Here's the deal. It is not a moral conflict.

    What is immoral, is a person refusing another person the right of self defense, and the ability to employ lethal force if that is what is necessary.

    If I were in your home, you would have no idea that I was armed. And you'd have no reason to be afraid because no harm would come to you or anyone in your house. And you (not knowing I had a weapon), would be totally at ease with my presence because I harbor no ill will to anyone. Also, there is no way I would lose control of my weapon because my weapons are that secure.

    Now if for some reason, I'm in your home, and horror of all horrors... That home invasion which you believe will always happen to the next guy and not at your home happens... Well, I'm defending myself. I'm not waiting for you to get finished using the bathroom and then go running to your secret hiding place to retrieve your weapon in order to try and protect me as a guest in your home. I'm taking care of it now.
    So if you tell me that you do not want something in your house and I do it anyway just because it is legal while ignoring your wishes, is it right?

    It is not a matter of being afraid or anything along those lines, it is a matter of property rights. Don't confuse the issue with being anti-gun but with being pro-property rights.

  5. #94
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    Y'all keep asserting that a property owner has a right to decree their every whim with a "So let it be written... so let it be done!" and a bang on the gong. You are correct in that they can, in fact, snap their fingers, click their heels, and make a solemn pronouncement -- it just does not have any effect at all in my state. I don't know how to say it any more plainly than that. There are states in which signs do have a legal effect, and there may well be states in which finger-snapping decrees have a legal effect... JUST NOT MINE.

    This is important to understand and remember: If the decree has no legal effect, it's not a right. There is no 'right to decree', here, nor a 'right to 3 genie wishes', 'right to spaghetti and meatballs' or any other fantasy right that you can dream up. A property owner must take actions such as screening people who enter his property, or 'trespassing' people that he wishes to leave. If they don't leave, he can call the police and have them removed. THAT is what he has a right to do.

    Do you think it's moral to move to a state, whose society has already agreed on laws, rights and a way of doing things, and demand to play by a different set of rules? You can't be bothered to learn your rights and duties -- you want everyone else to surrender their rights, to your convenience. My life is valuable and worth protecting. The right to keep and bear arms is a very important right, and I do not surrender it for the convenience of nitwits.
    I guess you are correct but I think that I am as well. If you post a sign with no legal authority saying no Cub's Hat's, and I come in wearing a Cub's hat, is it OK? Or should I have the decency to remove it and respect your rules even though I am legally allowed to ignore them until you tell me to leave?

    I do think it is moral. I am not asking you to surrender your rights, I am just asking you to respect mine. Why would someone be a nitwit if they do not want guns on their property? I read about a recent negligent discharge a few weeks ago in Orlando where a gentleman fired a gun carried in his pocket and injured four people. Should the restaurant owner have the right to say no guns in our restaurants? Should you have the right to say no "X" in my house?

  6. #95
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Here's the deal. It is not a moral conflict.

    What is immoral, is a person refusing another person the right of self defense, and the ability to employ lethal force if that is what is necessary.

    If I were in your home, you would have no idea that I was armed. And you'd have no reason to be afraid because no harm would come to you or anyone in your house. And you (not knowing I had a weapon), would be totally at ease with my presence because I harbor no ill will to anyone. Also, there is no way I would lose control of my weapon because my weapons are that secure.

    Now if for some reason, I'm in your home, and horror of all horrors... That home invasion which you believe will always happen to the next guy and not at your home happens... Well, I'm defending myself. I'm not waiting for you to get finished using the bathroom and then go running to your secret hiding place to retrieve your weapon in order to try and protect me as a guest in your home. I'm taking care of it now.
    Nobod is refusing anybody the right to defend themselves. They are just not allowing you to come onto their property. What is moral about agreeing to work somewhere unarmed while working there armed and not telling them while collecting a paycheck?

  7. #96
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    YouTube - ‪VIDEO: Armed Samaritan Shoots Attacker, Saves Woman‬‏

    Thank God this guy had a gun in Wal Mart.....He protected an employee who wouldn't have been allowed to carry (not saying that she had a gun to carry) and would have been Dead without his heroics....Wait, You're probably gonna condemn him, right???

  8. #97
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    By the way, is there something about the simple words "shall not be infringed" that you just don't 'get'?

  9. #98
    Ex Member Array apvbguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    Hello, McFly... The 'right to control activities' does not exist, here. That would require legal authority to arrest people who violate a property owner's 'laws'. I don't know of any country in the world in which a property owner can legally arrest a visitor for whatever reason they wish. Perhaps a Muslim country, with Sharia law? Heck, you might even be able to cut off your guest's hand for stealing cookies. That's not how we do things in the United States, though. Perhaps you should move to AfghaniPakIslaamistan.

    On the other hand the right to carry a gun does exist. It is a real right, with legal effect... so it's not a question of one right 'over-ruling' or 'trumping' another -- it's just that one thing is a right and the other is a sweet dream.
    if you really want to start insulting, you are an easy target, so do yourself a favor and don't go there again, now, are you really so dense that you can't grasp the fact that a property owner has rights just like you have rights? and that your rights DO NOT trump his rights.

  10. #99
    Ex Member Array apvbguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    So if you tell me that you do not want something in your house and I do it anyway just because it is legal while ignoring your wishes, is it right?

    It is not a matter of being afraid or anything along those lines, it is a matter of property rights. Don't confuse the issue with being anti-gun but with being pro-property rights.
    someone who gets it

  11. #100
    Ex Member Array Snatale42's Avatar
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    If I can't be formally charged with anything, or risk loosing my CHP...I carry. I don't "fear" being asked to leave.

  12. #101
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZTF Hitman View Post
    By the way, is there something about the simple words "shall not be infringed" that you just don't 'get'?
    So I imagine you open carry at work? What company do you work for? What does the boss say when you simply say "...shall not be infringed," to him or her?

  13. #102
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    I live in FL and thus visit a lot of theme parks on a regular basis (disney, universal studios etc) all of these places prohibit firearms per they're policy (not FL law) but there is no way I wouldn't carry in them. The only thing they check are bags therefore I know if I can get by everytime so can the lunatic who decided they are going to take out as many innocent people as and they can today. I'm still amazed that it hasn't happened yet but if it ever does I won't be the helpless person running for their life with no way to protect their family. Granted I know that if every person who ccw's carried there it could be a potential wild wild west situation with everyone thinking the next armed person is they badguy. However I'm a police officer and I've had pretty extensive active shooter training and probably think a little differently than your average theme park patron. Anyways that's my two cents. There's no situation where I don't see myself carrying concealed unless its out of the country. That said I really don't like leaving the country lol.

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  14. #103
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    My bottom-line on this subject is: It is at our discretion as individuals to weigh the pros and cons, and make our personal decisions accordingly. If a place has a no-firearms sign that is not backed by the legal framework of the state in question, I will carry. What'll happen? Unless I'd have to use a weapon in self defense, absolutely nothing, because I don't have a legal obligation to announce that I am carrying. That goes hand-in-hand with no one being obligated to protect me. I don't see why some of you are making such an issue of this. It's your choice, carry if you want, or don't. It affects me none either way. I won't be unarmed.

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  15. #104
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    I guess you are correct but I think that I am as well. If you post a sign with no legal authority saying no Cub's Hat's, and I come in wearing a Cub's hat, is it OK? Or should I have the decency to remove it and respect your rules even though I am legally allowed to ignore them until you tell me to leave?
    The Cub's hat is a bad analogy for you because everyone can see it when you enter... I suggest the analogy of bringing your own snacks into a movie theater. When I go to the theater, I usually wear cargo pants or a jacket with pockets large enough to bring in candy that didn't cost me an arm and a leg. I'm not going to pay $4.50 for a pack of M&Ms, to satisfy your imaginary right to a candy embargo. I guess you're 'moral' enough to pay ≈$9.50 for a bit of popcorn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    I do think it is moral. I am not asking you to surrender your rights, I am just asking you to respect mine.
    In my state, you can screen me when I enter/deny admittance or trespass me at any time, for pretty much any reason. I respect those rights. I do not respect people who claim phoney rights and I definitely do not surrender my real right to carry a gun in deference to an imaginary right. What would my rights be worth if I sold them out to delusions? Bupkis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    Why would someone be a nitwit if they do not want guns on their property? I read about a recent negligent discharge a few weeks ago in Orlando where a gentleman fired a gun carried in his pocket and injured four people. Should the restaurant owner have the right to say no guns in our restaurants? Should you have the right to say no "X" in my house?
    I think 'nitwit' is the perfect word to describe someone who doesn't bother to learn what his rights are, is too lazy to take the proper action to get what he wants, and expects others to do the job for him at their personal expense. Restaurant owners can screen people at the door or ask them to leave, just the same as anybody else. If they do not, then they are nitwits, as I have just described. I should have the rights that are agreed to by the society in which I am a member...

    The problem is not saying "No ______ in my house", it's the "or else _____" part. As I have previously alluded to, property owners are not and should not be given legal authority to arbitrarily arrest and punish their guests for violating pseudo-laws. On the other hand, they are property owners and that should obviously count for something. The compromise that we have arrived at in this society is the right to ask someone to leave and have them charged with trespassing if they do not. I think it's a great compromise. Even that right has its exceptions, though.

  16. #105
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    Hello, McFly... The 'right to control activities' does not exist, here. That would require legal authority to arrest people who violate a property owner's 'laws'. I don't know of any country in the world in which a property owner can legally arrest a visitor for whatever reason they wish. Perhaps a Muslim country, with Sharia law? Heck, you might even be able to cut off your guest's hand for stealing cookies. That's not how we do things in the United States, though. Perhaps you should move to AfghaniPakIslaamistan.

    On the other hand the right to carry a gun does exist. It is a real right, with legal effect... so it's not a question of one right 'over-ruling' or 'trumping' another -- it's just that one thing is a right and the other is a sweet dream.

    Quote Originally Posted by apvbguy View Post
    if you really want to start insulting, you are an easy target, so do yourself a favor and don't go there again, now, are you really so dense that you can't grasp the fact that a property owner has rights just like you have rights? and that your rights DO NOT trump his rights.
    I think we can both agree that I have the right to carry a gun, so let's get that out of the way.

    Now, what is the property owner's right that you persist in promoting? The 'right to control activities on his property'? I've already tried to explain it to you, so why don't you explain it to me this time...

    What legal effect does this right have?

    How is it enforced?

    Can you give me an example of someone making use of this right?

    What happens when this right is violated?

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