June 14th, 2011 11:16 AM
Well, I am not a cardiac surgeon, I know nothing about doing open heart surgery, and am never going to attempt it. That isn't really a fault of mine, becoming a doctor was never in the cards for me for a number of reasons. It's not my cup of tea, and there is nothing wrong with that IMHO.
That being said, if I started proclaiming myself an expert on open heart surgery with my current level of experience, and telling doctors how to perform it, and speaking about the evils of it because a loved one died during a brain surgery, despite the fact that it has saved far more lives than have died on the operating table, that is a bit different.
There is a difference between not knowing something because it just isn't your "thing," and openly attacking something you know nothing, or wrong information not based on anything expect maybe anecdotal evidence, about.
Fortes Fortuna Juvat
Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor
June 14th, 2011 11:29 AM
Sounds like you have a very sweet grandma. Maybe if you go up there and teach a class which your grandpa attends, your grandma would like to sit in and just listen to what you have to say.
There is always hope for the uneducated, especially if they are willing to listen or learn.
The anti's whatever they are anti against usually make up nonsensical arguments for their side.
Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
Texas CHL Instructor
Texas Hunter Education Instructor
June 14th, 2011 11:36 AM
Whats the difference?
I believe antis are uneducated
June 14th, 2011 11:36 AM
I love a good argument/discussion, and enjoy the challenge of winning the hearts and minds of antis.
Many times it's as difficult (read impossible) to change their minds as it would be to change ours.
Some antis have come to their belief by listening to (and even studying) the rhetoric of the "professional antis." Some just have an irrational fear of guns (a phobia)... Some are emotionally "charged" in their opposition to firearms.
Phobics are not swayed by any rational discussion... overcoming true phobias requires extensive counselling.
Those with an emotional "feeling" about guns or the right to bear arms can sometimes be swayed with an "emotionally based" argument, like: "I love my family more than anything. I don't know about you, but I would do anything in my power to keep anything bad from happening to them." and continuing from there.
Those who have come to their opinion about guns from "expert sources" on the other side can be very difficult to win over, too. Depending on the level of their "miseducation," quoting some pro gun sources like John Lott only results in their citation of the portions of Lott's studies that have been called into question ( they will use the term "debunked"). And, as soon as you quote Lott, they just know that the rest your arguments will bear no truth. There is a "neutral" study that you can cite that finds that the methodology used by both sides in their studies provides no substantial evidence for either case (for or against guns in the home or carry laws, etc.).
In most cases, the best you can hope for is that they can see your side of the argument, or at least "allow" for it. If you can raise a "reasonable doubt" aobut their information, they may begin to see te light, but it's a long, slow process (rather like turning an ocean liner around).
Those whose mind you can change easily, who are truly "open minded" can, and will change into antis just as easily.
As to "who's worse?" Neither the anti nor the uneducated is as bad as the phobic. And the "open minded" rarely think for themselves.
All that said... many folks don't like "bible thumpers" knocking on their door trying to foist their particular religion on them. I know I don't. But if someone is publicly disparaging my "religion," I will defend it in the same arena.
It could be worse!
June 14th, 2011 11:48 AM
Like it or not, it's likely considered politically correct to hate on guns and scorn the gun nut mindset and personality stereotype. Some of my inlaws on both sides of the family are anti, ignorant and very pc. They aren't militantly so, but it effects the family a bit. I educate gently, and don't force it on them, but I make it clear that I don't entertain any concern for being pc either. The few things that I chose to take an unbending stance on, I've thought about a lot, and am educated about.
My perspective is that most anti gun people are ignorant of the facts, otherwise they wouldn't be anti! There are always going to be a few strong, intellectual friends who are anti, and I enjoy discussing things with them, but at the end of the day I believe they are just fooling themselves. The facts, the logic, the moral compas, are all straightforward issues with clear cut answers and outcomes. I hope that they sleep on the subject and wind up realizing the truth of things eventually.
June 14th, 2011 11:49 AM
The uneducated can be educated, and the wrongly educated can be re-educated. The rabid "anti-for-no-reason-other-than-because-I-say-so-and-guns-scare-me" anti cannot be reasoned or bargained with.
This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.
June 14th, 2011 12:34 PM
Yes, some states have specific "state" classes that have to be taught (Utah, for example).. however everything I have heard on the matter so far is that basic NRA classes should suffice for WI though, of course, that is subject to change as the bill is not signed, sealed and delivered yet. I've been an NRA certified instructor for a few years now so if NRA classes suffice I'll be able to teach in WI with no problems.
Originally Posted by TedBeau
We'll just have to see how the final law pans out. If it changes I have no problem saying, "Sorry, grandpa, they changed things and you need to take a class from xyz." Truth be told I'd rather not teach his CCW class as I know he thinks he knows it all (what 90 y/o doesn't.. lol) and will likely not listen to me as much as he would someone else. Then again, he might be more interested in listening to me because I am his granddaughter and he might just be interested in watching how I teach. Who knows.
June 14th, 2011 12:38 PM
+1 Stole the words out of my mouth
Originally Posted by CowboyColby
June 14th, 2011 12:58 PM
This is very true and something I am careful to recognize. Because of that I make sure I do not give an opinion on the matter until I've researched it and tried to get my major questions answered by sound sources. I certainly try not to make assumptions until I have the base facts. My grandmother has been beating the war drums against concealed carry for years and, as said, even though she knows I carry and teach classes to allow others to get their permits she still thinks it's a bad idea and that only police/military should be armed on a daily basis.
Originally Posted by The Dark
King of along the lines of what jwhite said...
This describes my grandmother very well. She grew up in a very liberal family and while she is sound in some of her philosophy there are other areas where she definitely thinks the police/military are the ultimate protectors and better trained than citizens who carry and that citizens carrying will lead to senseless blood shed (despite the evidence to the contrary).
Originally Posted by jwhite75
I wonder their 70 year marriage will fair with my grandfather OBVIOUSLY wanting to get his permit to carry and her being so against it?
Agreed! If something isn't my "thing" and I don't know much about it I don't get into conversations about it because I don't feel I have enough information to contribute. But quite a few of my more liberal family members in WI are terrified of concealed carry coming to WI because they think it's going to make the streets run red or that it's paranoid and a sign of some psychological issues/abuse, whatever.
Originally Posted by buckeye .45
That's a good idea. I know my grandmother would come just to see me teach. Unfortunately, if it's just an NRA basic class there's nothing in regards to law or mindset or anything and she certainly does not have a problem with guns in general. She prefers not to have to deal with them but does not mind people owning them.
Originally Posted by farronwolf
She is a very opinionated lady at times, however, and sometimes it takes a bit to win her over (if at all). lol.
I have often felt the same way! I think people who are vehemently anti live in the concept of the "ideal" and completely disregard reality and the fact that reality can and likely will never change to fit their ideals.
Originally Posted by Snider
Sure, it sounds pretty good that getting rid of all guns would make gun violence go away but we all know that the reality is as long as there are bad people out there who are determined to get their hands on guns they will find them and use them against the unarmed.
I wish I could hear them intelligently debate how crime goes down in areas where concealed carry is passed. Still haven't heard an educated explanation for that.
June 14th, 2011 01:23 PM
I think it ALL comes down to uneducated, with some rare cases.
Uneducated believe the media drivel (even much of the MEDIA actually believes it) and will happily quote 'facts' back at you.
Uneducated think they are experts from watching movies, then shoot themselves or someone else making some sensational news headlines.
Uneducated find the shotgun under the couch and feel that they must check to see if it's loaded or not...by putting their finger on the trigger and fiddling with switches and buttons.
Feeding into this are the TRUE antis...the ones who know and understand, then twist it to push their goals (e.g. using the confusion between semi-automatic weapons and machine guns and intentionally twisting the difference).
BOTH are dangerous, but I firmly believe education can help with a LOT of the issues. No, you won't change some people's minds, but at least they can make an informed decision rather than basing things on sensationalized stories, twisted statistics, or Hollywood movies.
June 14th, 2011 01:34 PM
This just in:
Originally Posted by limatunes
Earliest Recorded UCR (Uniform Crime Report)
Location: A near perfect world (just outside of Paradise)
Murder rate: 25%
Source: The Bible, Genesis 4:1-8
No guns involved!
Even with "all the guns" in the United States.... Our violent crime rate (let alone the muder rate) has never reached as high as that!
We know that the UK is suffering under an alarming increase in blade assaults and murder.
"Post hoc, ergo propter hoc"
Originally Posted by limatunes
While you and I and any reasonable person can see some relationship between the two; in reality, there may be none proven.
It could be worse!
June 14th, 2011 01:48 PM
I used to feel that way, I guess I enjoyed the challenge of trying to change someones mind. Anymore I would just rather avoid it, (maybe I'm getting lazy in my old age) it's like trying to teach a pig to sing, all it does is annoy the pig and wastes your time. All in all I think I would rather assle off to the woods with the dogs.
Originally Posted by oakchas
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it".
June 14th, 2011 01:59 PM
I have to admit, I too have gotten a bit more selective in who I enter into the discussion with... I'd at least like to give someone pause to think... many are so enamored of their beliefs and conclusions, that's just not possible... And frankly, many of us pro-gun folks are just as stubborn.
Originally Posted by Stubborn
It could be worse!
June 14th, 2011 03:05 PM
Let's take all the anti-gun idiots and move them to kalifornia, put a fence around the state and not let them out Or better yet take both the uneducated and the anti gun idiots and place a sign in their front yards "This House Has No Firearms or Weapons"
Life Member DAV, NRA Member AZR&PA, IDPA, USPSA
June 14th, 2011 03:21 PM
What bugs me are the educated who are antis.
And by this I mean anti-carry-rights for others, not just for themselves. They can become educated and then decide it's not for them. Their call. But don't let them decide for me.
It also totally cracks me up that people think that if there are anti cc laws that dirt bags will not have guns, carry, and use them in the commission of crimes. That "lets keep our streets safe by declaring them firearms free" thing.
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