What's worse? The antis or the uneducated?
This is a discussion on What's worse? The antis or the uneducated? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My family is from WI. Over the weekend I went up to visit my family and heard a brief snippet on the radio that Concealed ...
June 14th, 2011 12:18 AM
What's worse? The antis or the uneducated?
My family is from WI. Over the weekend I went up to visit my family and heard a brief snippet on the radio that Concealed Carry may be a very real possibility for Wisconsin in the very near future.
Of course, for the gun-loving side of the family (including my father) this was good news. And when I went over to my grandparents' house I wasn't surprised to find the topic come up when my grandfather said, "So, when are you going to give me my training certificate so that I can go get my carry permit?"
I laughed and said, "Well, grandpa, I have to evaluate you first. I can't just give you a cert."
"Why not? I've been shooting since I was six."
I said, "Tell you what. We'll come back up and teach a class and you can attend and get your certificate that way. It will be fun. You'll get to see me teach then."
That seemed to win him over but when my grandmother heard the conversation she broke in with, "You know, I really think that's a bad idea. I mean, Wisconsin is such a drinking state and almost every day you hear about a fight or a stabbing or something that goes on over a fight in a bar. And all of the police officers do not like it."
I said, "Grandma, you can't possibly know how all of the police officers feel. I'm sure there are some for it and some against it and some who probably don't care. Besides, I have no idea how the bill was worded and there might be a clause that says one cannot carry into an establishment that serves alcohol. I don't know, I haven't read the bill."
"Well," she says, "That would make me feel a little better, but just knowing that anyone out there can go get a permit and carry a gun. Does that mean felons will be able to get one?"
I said, "Oh no, felons cannot even purchase and, from what I hear there will be a background check requirement that means no felons or persons under a restraining order and such will be allowed to get a permit to carry."
"Really?" she says. "Well, that makes me feel better... but.. I still don't think it's a good idea."
I've tried to point out that the vast majority of the US has had carry permits for a decade plus and we have simply not had the increases in gun violence that was expected. No matter what I threw at her she still shivered and said, "It scares me to think of all these people carrying guns."
However, she has known I've been an armed citizen since the year I turned 21 and has no problem with it.
I guess it's a little different when you know someone personally but I was surprised to here her even question whether or not they would allow felons to get permits. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
June 14th, 2011 12:31 AM
At least with the uneducated, you start with a clean slate and hopefully, and open mind. Trying to convert the "other side" is loads tougher because you have the additional burden of getting the subject to admit that were wrong... emotion and ego get in the way of reason.
NRA Endowment Member
NROI Chief Range Officer
June 14th, 2011 12:50 AM
This is very true.
Originally Posted by gasmitty
June 14th, 2011 01:11 AM
I have run into a few anti's that have a negative physical reaction to go along with their irrational fear of guns. I am no psychiatrist, but that seems like a phobia.
I am not trained nor do I have the patience to deal with that.
I would much rather deal with uneducated. Without opinions to change they never have to admit that they were wrong/misinformed.
June 14th, 2011 01:14 AM
I'll spend plenty of time, and have before, talking to someone who is uneducated but curious. I've come across this several times while OC'ing. But the ideological anti, I'll give a minute or two and likely just leave them with a smart comment to chew over.
I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!
"Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"
June 14th, 2011 02:20 AM
odd but true--at least 25% of the women & daughters at the last 3 Women On Target, were professed gun not liker's.
stories of relatives, friends of and family members who have had 'accidents' with guns they owned or were threatened by.
by the end of the day all had lost their fear of the 'Item' and many owned up to actually enjoying the day.
these were/are educated women from all walks of life; they came with open minds and admitted to some hostile feelings that over
the course of just 8 hours myself and the host of other instructors saw great changes with those who are willing to absorb
the other side of the story.
you wonder why they would even come if they dislike guns--common statements along the lines of ; so many of my friends have gotten one recently and i was wounering...
and; my ex didn't like them but I'm coutrious... lots of reasons and lots of ages; 13 to 72 last year. they like my CZ-452 w/ Nikon, i tell them that I'm the one who puts the holes in lifesavers.
at 100 yards its a cakewalk.
You plug 'em, I plant 'em
...kid can't read at 17 (Garcia/Hunter 1985)
Lack of preparation on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on mine
June 14th, 2011 03:00 AM
Very true and I like to point out something similar to people....in "most" states today, anyone who wants to carry already can and is. (besides felons and those with documented mental health issues...which varies by state). And yet...most people do not. It's a committment and a responsibility and many people dont choose to do so. So it's not likely that a change in laws will have masses of people rushing out to get permits. Nor would loosening the restrictions in some states, like MD, encourage the masses to apply (IMO).
Originally Posted by limatunes
Fortune favors the bold.
Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.
The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)
June 14th, 2011 04:58 AM
It has been my experience that anti's usually are anti simply because they are uneducated.
Now there are those who are willing to learn and those who are not. Those that are willing, I teach or send to someone else who can. Those that are unwilling, there isn't much I can do for them. Patience is key with both.
If you have never broken your gun or bled on your gun in training, you're doing it wrong!
Train hard, live easy.
June 14th, 2011 06:14 AM
Definitely the anti's are worst. You can teach the uneducated...you can't fix stupid.
Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.
NRA Life Member
June 14th, 2011 07:21 AM
Whether anti or uneducated, some you will win over and some you will not. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree and move on.
I've been entrenched in debate with some to the point where after countering every issue they had with actual facts or logical points they really could not give me one single logical reason why they were against guns or carrying, but they were still dead set against it. You can't really change that. I guess it is somewhat like my not liking celery. I can't really explain why or give you one logical reason why, but I can't stand it...not even one little sliver of it. I don't even like stuff that celery has been in even if I pick it all out. No amount of talking or discussing the merits of celery is ever going to change that.
Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.
June 14th, 2011 07:53 AM
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
Some people, regardless of the level of intelligence, cannot think logically about some topics.
Is that a phobia, or a flat spot in their brain? Who knows!
Pick your battles wisely. Sometimes it is not worth it.
So, uneducated and open-minded is definitely better.
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
June 14th, 2011 08:25 AM
All I will say by way of general comment is that I find whether it is firearms, politics, social policy, science, and so on, all of us are uneducated in some area at some point. Unfortunately, those are often also the very areas where we find the most strident opinions. There is seldom a meaningful correlation between our certitude and our knowledge. That goes for pros, antis, educated and uneducated.
"To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence." Friedrich Nietzsche
June 14th, 2011 10:45 AM
I'm torn. I almost think the uneducated are worse off. If they congregate with other uneducated they just spread their uneducation amongst themselves and shore each other up in their uneducatedness. Did I just invent a word here?
"My God David, We're a Civilized society."
"Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
-The Mist (2007)
June 14th, 2011 11:06 AM
Unfortunately, at least in my experience....they are one and the same more often than not. Their ignorance or flat out refusal to listen to any point other than theirs causes their beliefs. Now your grandmother is probably due to a generational or upbringing thing. In her formative years, a gun meant the household shot gun or deer rifle. Police officers and cowboys on TV carried pistols. They just dont associate them with something a "regular" person would need in the everyday.
The antis I have run across are generally only able to spit out widely distributed propoganda and no real actual facts. Usually its just what the liberal media spits at them. They are generally ignorant on how a defensive firearm actually works and think they are all tools that have hair triggers and will go off by looking across the room at them.
They want to associate us with vigilantes and conjure up pictures of "Eastwoodesque"(yeah I just made that up...) gun toters wlaking around making bravado statements at our victims about punks and being lucky. They think we all wanna pack big 44 mags or huge Beretta M9s like on TV and Glocks are what Thug rappers and ciminals carry and sing about.
The truly uneducated like your grandmother or the like can be talked to and they may still not want to be a part of it but have no problem with others doing it.
It truly is a narrow margin between the two IMO.
Friends don't let friends be MALL NINJAS.
I am just as nice as anyone lets me be and can be just as mean as anyone makes me. - Quoted from Terryger, New member to our forum.
June 14th, 2011 11:14 AM
So Lima, I take it you have a certification to teach CPL classes? Is this is recognized in Wisconsin?
Originally Posted by limatunes
I would assume that in order to teach in Wisconsin you would have to take a coarse on what needs to be covered to in a class that is required for a Wisconsin CPL. I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I was just wondering what it takes to become certified to teach various states. I know some states accept an NRA recognized trainer, but I would assume other require a state certification.
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