Enhanced Firearms And the Courtroom

This is a discussion on Enhanced Firearms And the Courtroom within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It is a wonderful thing to know you don't have to run and you can stand your ground and justifiably defend yourself or your loved ...

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Thread: Enhanced Firearms And the Courtroom

  1. #31
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    It is a wonderful thing to know you don't have to run and you can stand your ground and justifiably defend yourself or your loved ones if the situation ever arises without worrying about civil suits and prosecutors trying to hang you. I couldn't imaging living in a state where I am in fear of civil litigation or prosecution for defending myself.

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    I couldn't imaging living in a state where I am in fear of civil litigation or prosecution for defending myself.
    Oklahoma also provides for civil immunity, I believe. All we need is open carry so I can be cooler (temperature that is) in the summer and I'd be happy as could be here.
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  4. #33
    Member Array wwelch315's Avatar
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    I don't know about the additional added prison time, that is something new to me. However, as far as how modifications could affect a verdict I can see how certain changes could be more likely to get a guilty verdict (not that it is right). Again it will also depend what kind of mods were made, if the mods could ultimately be interpreded as added safety features they probably would not hurt you at trial. The DA is going to do everthing they can to paint you as being someone who was trigger happy. There was another thread on here from someone who was looking to carry a s&w 500 as a sd gun, you do not want the da to be able to hold up your gun at trial and say "this person doesn't carry any normal gun for sd they carry one of the most powerful production handguns in the world." Just like if you have are carbine in your house for defense, this is going to be held up in front of the jury while the DA says something like "this is not a sd weapon, this is an assult rifle used by the military to kill." Something everyone has to remember is god forbid you have to go to trial for a sd shooting, but if you do it is all about how the jury preceives everything it is ultimately up to them whether it was sd or not, no matter how right you were.

  5. #34
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    I am not sure what authority gives the DA any right to confiscate a person's PC simply because they were involved in an SD shooting. Perhaps you can cite such a case for our edification.
    "Simply"?

    Because it's a homicide and you caused it. So, you will be investigated for Murder unless it's so obvious it was Self-Defense there is absolutely no doubt possible. But don't count it.

    Anything relevant to a homicide/murder investigation is potential evidence - and your computer may contain emails to the dead man proving you knew him. Or there may be evidence in posts of a predisposal to kill: you believe no criminal should live and if you had your way: summary execution would be the norm. And so forth.....

    Homicide. Murder. It doesn't get more serious. You say it was self-defense, so what, what are you going to say: "I murdered him"? You called 911 and said you were lethally attacked. You know your gun is registered and you'll be found. Think you're the first to try that?

    As a police officer I know said to me once over coffee: "Man, if you shoot somebody you are going to be in a _ _ _ _LOAD of trouble."





    (-"Any witnesses that can corroborate your story?"
    - " ......... silence ............" )

  6. #35
    Distinguished Member Array RevolvingMag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    "Simply"?

    Because it's a homicide and you caused it. So, you will be investigated for Murder unless it's so obvious it was Self-Defense there is absolutely no doubt possible. But don't count it.

    Anything relevant to a homicide/murder investigation is potential evidence - and your computer may contain emails to the dead man proving you knew him. Or there may be evidence in posts of a predisposal to kill: you believe no criminal should live and if you had your way: summary execution would be the norm. And so forth.....

    Homicide. Murder. It doesn't get more serious. You say it was self-defense, so what, what are you going to say: "I murdered him"? You called 911 and said you were lethally attacked. You know your gun is registered and you'll be found. Think you're the first to try that?

    As a police officer I know said to me once over coffee: "Man, if you shoot somebody you are going to be in a _ _ _ _LOAD of trouble."





    (-"Any witnesses that can corroborate your story?"
    - " ......... silence ............" )

    I'll be honest with you; I DO have a predisposition to kill. To kill ANYONE who is ARMED and THREATENING my life. Not trying to be 'smart' about it, just honest. As wrong as it may seem to all these 'righteous' people- my honest, productive, law-abiding life is worth more to me and my family than the offender's violent criminal life once he points that gun at my face.

    And, also, how many people here DON'T feel that summary execution should be the norm for repeat violent offenders?

    Again, not trying to cause trouble, or make anyone mad. Just throwing my 2 cents out there.
    "Rock and load, lock and roll... what's it matter? FIRE!!"

    "Gun control means hitting your target every time."

    Please take everything I say with at least one grain of salt- I am a very sarcastic person with a very dry sense of humor.

  7. #36
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolvingMag View Post
    I'll be honest with you; I DO have a predisposition to kill. To kill ANYONE who is ARMED and THREATENING my life. Not trying to be 'smart' about it, just honest. As wrong as it may seem to all these 'righteous' people- my honest, productive, law-abiding life is worth more to me and my family than the offender's violent criminal life once he points that gun at my face.

    And, also, how many people here DON'T feel that summary execution should be the norm for repeat violent offenders?

    Again, not trying to cause trouble, or make anyone mad. Just throwing my 2 cents out there.
    I didn't use the phrase: "feel that summary execution should be the norm for repeat violent offenders?" in the post I wrote.

    (And I don't feel that way since you asked.)

    But you don't understand. What I feel isn't the point of a criminal investigation of somebody else. And to the authorities, what you say your defense is for killing someone is what you say. Their job is to find what happened and why based on evidence. Just because you say it - doesn't' mean it's true from their standpoint. They weren't there. If you did it because you were ready to execute before the incident occurred and not because of what actually happened during the incident, you are not entitled to the legal justification of Self-Defense and you are in the greatest legal jeopardy anyone can be in. There is a very high likelihood you will be charged with Murder.

  8. #37
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    Like a lawyer explained to me: Use of a firearm is deadly force! FMJ/HP, pistol/revolver, iron sights/laser sights, heavy trigger/light trigger--none of this makes a difference. The use of the firearm is deadly force and none of the above makes it any more-or-less deadly.
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  9. #38
    Member Array DBWOODS6721's Avatar
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    I had a reliability and trigger job done 4.5 lbs on a 1911 and frame bobed

  10. #39
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willieboy View Post
    Guys, I have had some changes made to a Ruger SP101. I've had the hammer bobbed, the trigger smoothed and lightened and the gun is now double action only.

    I recently saw in the news where a guy was convicted in what was apparently an unjustified and given an EXTRA ten years becasue his gun was said to be "enhanced", maybe like my SP101.

    Do any of you guys have an feel for this? Would you carry a gun that had been "Enhanced"?
    I see you live in NJ; so, I would probably be a bit concerned using that pistol for SD. However, just as a good prosecutor could use it against you, a good defense attorney could argue that you actually made your firearm "safer".

    For instance:
    Bobbing the hammer can help keep it from being accidently pulled & released from catching on clothes, belt etc. Converting it to double-action only makes it more difficult to have an ND because of more creep and take up.

    I've also heard about a story where the DA tried to demonized a CCer because of a lighter trigger. But, it was successfully argued that a lighter trigger made the firearm safer because it made it more possible to "control" when the gun actualy fired; thus limiting the chance of an ND.

    I think you would be more likely to get in trouble if you mess with a guns "safety" mechanisms. But, I have heard stories of custom work causing some problems for people who've had to use a customized gun in SD. ("Trigger work is the most comman risk I hear about.)

    I would just check with an attorney in your state and resort to playing it safe by keeping your "carry" weapon stock.

  11. #40
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Like a lawyer explained to me: Use of a firearm is deadly force! FMJ/HP, pistol/revolver, iron sights/laser sights, heavy trigger/light trigger--none of this makes a difference. The use of the firearm is deadly force and none of the above makes it any more-or-less deadly.
    +1 on ^^^THIS^^^!

    If you have to defend yourself with ANY weapon, just make CERTAIN you are justified in doing it.

  12. #41
    Member Array chasbo00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Like a lawyer explained to me: Use of a firearm is deadly force! FMJ/HP, pistol/revolver, iron sights/laser sights, heavy trigger/light trigger--none of this makes a difference. The use of the firearm is deadly force and none of the above makes it any more-or-less deadly.
    Amen brother!

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Their are good reasons for keeping a firearm stock, or as close to it as possible...but they aren't the reasons people here think.

    This thread is what happens when people assume they have a proper basis of information upon which to make a decision, then start arguing about something with incomplete facts that they assume are complete...

    It's useless, but quite entertaining.

    Anyway...the reasons why trigger jobs and functional modifications (discounting cosmetic mods) are something that causes trouble is court is that they can create the perception of a negligent discharge.

    Self defense, you see, is a deliberate action.

    It is a complete shield to criminal and civil liability if done correctly.

    That means "No conviction" for a prosecutor, "No Money" for a civil plaintiff's attorney.

    A fortuitous mistake which resulted in shooting the bad guy...that's not self defense. That's negligence.

    You can't have a "negligent-discharge-self-defense" defense to justify your actions...but that's exactly what a prosecutor who decided he didn't agree with your actions will try to show your actions are, as well as a plaintiff's attorney looking for cash will do - Why?

    Because it's easier to show you probably made an unjustified mistake, than it is to show you willfully and deliberately shot someone unlawfully.

    Also...from a civil point of view...insurance doesn't pay for murder, but it does pay for ACCIDENTS. Like a ND...

    A firearm with work done does not in and of itself mean you are going to jail/will loose a civil case.

    It means that certain issues will have their door opened, and you will have to deal with - and that's more factors you have to deal with properly in the aftermath.

    It's not an automatic thing, it's an additional set of data to factor into the incident to obtain a satisfactory outcome.

  14. #43
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    It is interesting to see the mindsets of people on what they think will or will not happen from different states.

  15. #44
    Member Array wwelch315's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Because it's easier to show you probably made an unjustified mistake, than it is to show you willfully and deliberately shot someone unlawfully.
    I don't know about this, I think it would be very hard for a DA to convince a Jury that the shooting was a ND if the shooter/victim is there saying "No I shot him on purpose because I thought he was going to kill me." No matter what the MOD's I think if someone says they did something intentionally the Jury is going to believe them, the shooter just has to make their case for a SD shooting.

  16. #45
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Like a lawyer explained to me: Use of a firearm is deadly force! FMJ/HP, pistol/revolver, iron sights/laser sights, heavy trigger/light trigger--none of this makes a difference. The use of the firearm is deadly force and none of the above makes it any more-or-less deadly.
    as far as he went---spot on

    what was unsaid, this is me in CT reading between the lines: none of the above makes it any more-or-less deadly, just more costly in court to explain the additional information pertaining to each change that was made to the gun since it left the factory( recalls exempted) to the jury what the cost of my ( the lawyers ) time and the cost of bringing in one, possibly two expert witnesses..

    so i carry the same gun as is issued to various government agencies and the same cartrage as is issued to my state police and/or my local PD.

    a shooting with a j-frame loaded with target LSWC's vs a 'tuned' semi-auto loaded with advertised one-shot-stopping ammo can be $20K vs 40K.
    you win both ways---just 6 months in court vs 2 years and $20K poorer.

    beauty of living in America is it is a free country. you are even free to pay for your mistakes or lack of investigative prowess
    in the real world its what your lawyer has read; what you have read, not so much. course if you are smart enough to consult with to him before an event should happen; the manor of the event and immediate aftermath, will be knowledgeable on your part and thus less difficult for him to do his job.
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
    -------------------
    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

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