Enhanced Firearms And the Courtroom
This is a discussion on Enhanced Firearms And the Courtroom within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Guys, I have had some changes made to a Ruger SP101. I've had the hammer bobbed, the trigger smoothed and lightened and the gun is ...
June 19th, 2011 09:06 PM
Enhanced Firearms And the Courtroom
Guys, I have had some changes made to a Ruger SP101. I've had the hammer bobbed, the trigger smoothed and lightened and the gun is now double action only.
I recently saw in the news where a guy was convicted in what was apparently an unjustified and given an EXTRA ten years becasue his gun was said to be "enhanced", maybe like my SP101.
Do any of you guys have an feel for this? Would you carry a gun that had been "Enhanced"?
Last edited by HotGuns; June 19th, 2011 at 11:07 PM.
Reason: fixed the title
June 19th, 2011 09:29 PM
I have heard that in before. All my pistols are stock from the factory. I have heard that if you make mods to a weapon that will help with accuracy and safety you are ok. I have talked to a lot of different lawyers, DAs and such who had a whole lot of different takes on the issue. I think it is going to depend greatly on the prosecutor who is assigned the case and what their feelings are on guns. I know a prosecutor that is very anti gun and he straight up told me that he would do what ever it took to prosecute any case involving a gun. He further told me that he didn't think anyone should own any type of firearms excluding LEOs on duty only and the military on duty only. He was one of those types that would find any reason to convince a jury that a person was guilty of a gun crime. I don't trust lawyers at all, so I don't want to give a prosecutor any additional reason to go after me if I was to be involved in a defensive shooting.
June 19th, 2011 09:40 PM
Do you intend to carry for SD? If so any opposing Atty. will use it against you. You may be able to over come their claim that you enhanced the gun to make it more deadly, but it will cost you a lot more money for expert wittiness or you may not. That is why most depts. do not allow modifications to duty guns.
Originally Posted by Willieboy
June 19th, 2011 09:54 PM
if its a SD carry gun i keep it stock as it came from the factory. there is that it may have gone back to the factory for work ( warranted or re-call) and i make copies of the paper work(original in safe deposit box, copies in gun safe and scanned into computer files). i will clean it as instructed and change bbl spring (keep receipt) as instructed in the manual. i want to keep it as simple as possible for my attorney if needed. simple may cost less cause it takes him less time to work the jury. the outcome may be the same, just the cost could be different.
personally the concept of 'more deadly' is just dumb. as in, if you ran someone over at 40 mph in a corvette capable of going 150, does that make the car more deadly than a corolla cause it can only go 110mph?
though sometimes we may make a choice according to how it may be that we may have to enjoin battle.
lots of 'mays' there but thats what happens in a litigus society.
You plug 'em, I plant 'em
...kid can't read at 17 (Garcia/Hunter 1985)
Lack of preparation on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on mine
June 19th, 2011 10:05 PM
Mas Ayoob in particular has popularized the notion that in a defensive shooting, modifications to a gun can be used against the shooter. He was retained as an expert witness in the Alvarez trial in Miami. In that trial, the fact that Officer Alvarez had a slightly modified trigger was used as a club by the prosecution, claiming it made the gun "more lethal, with greater firepower." That argument was readily shredded by the defense, but the point is that it came up at all.
I would not hesitate to convert a revolver to DA only, as this was subsequently done by the Miami PD as a foil to the claim that Alvarez cocked the hammer on his revolver when he tried to take the suspect into custody. NYPD and other agencies did the same. You're not putting a "hair trigger" on the gun, you're ensuring that a long, deliberate DA trigger pull is required to make the gun fire.
In contrast, what is NOT defensible is a target shooter's 2-pound trigger pull that is claimed to give "greater control" and this accuracy... that argument would go down in flames.
NRA Endowment Member
NROI Chief Range Officer
June 19th, 2011 10:06 PM
Thanks for your replies guys. My intention was to carry the gun for SD, but really don't need to. I agree with what you guys have said. Makes no sense to give a prosecuor any extra quivers in his quiver. I guess I should have spent my money on the little Ruger that comes DAO with a bobbed hammer and then just waited for the trigger to smooth itself out.
June 19th, 2011 10:21 PM
It is because you live in nj. That is not normal behavior in free America.
June 19th, 2011 10:59 PM
I shouldn't be an issue for a reasonable person, however I don't want it to exist. My EDC, BUG, and ammo are all store bought stock. I can just hear some slick prosecutor asking about my super duper blast'em away reloads, "Why, you just wanted to see what dem sumbiches wud do to a guy, didn't ch'all?"
Being from MN, I'd have to say, "Ya shure youbetcha."
Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776
Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
-Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95
June 19th, 2011 11:07 PM
Somewhere I saw a video of Mas Ayoob addressing this and giving multiple examples...one that stuck was an example of modifying a Glock trigger to be lighter and pointing out that the prosecution would likely pull in a Glock engineer and try to make it look like you're claiming to know more than a major manufacturer. I DO have some modified pistols, but I don't carry them.
June 19th, 2011 11:19 PM
Any blood sucking lawyer or DA will try to make something out of anything...or nothing. I've changed a few springs on revolvers, but it took them from 12 pound trigger pull to about 8. Still not a hair trigger by any means. The fact that I changed grips on my 442 to old style wooden grips might even be made into an issue. Oh well. It fits my hand better. I've often wondered how lasers and night sights might be exploited by a lawyer. I don't have either, but I've wondered.
Oh, don't forget that they will confiscate your PC and be aware of your posts here on this forum. They'll try to make an issue out of that too.
Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.
June 19th, 2011 11:35 PM
Just as many arguments can be made in favor of a customized gun. You mght argue that a trigger job made the gun easier to shoot, thus less likely to injure an innocent. You could argue that someone willing to spend extra money to enhance performance was more of an expert than a "regular" gun owner. Someone who had competition parts in his gun had more experience, made better judgements, etc...
All of my carry guns are pretty well customized, all by me, and I don't worry too much.
Try not to screw up so bad they name the screw up after you. (Station 15 saying)
NRA Certifed Instructor
June 20th, 2011 06:20 PM
[QUOTE=skysoldier29;1959163] I know a prosecutor that is very anti gun and he straight up told me that he would do what ever it took to prosecute any case involving a gun. He further told me that he didn't think anyone should own any type of firearms excluding LEOs on duty only and the military on duty only. He was one of those types that would find any reason to convince a jury that a person was guilty of a gun crime.
Seems this clown does not intend to "Uphold the laws of the State and the Constitution of th United States" as he had to sware to do after his election. He needs to be recalled IMHO.
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June 20th, 2011 06:55 PM
I'm pretty sure you totally misunderstood whatever it was you read.
Originally Posted by Willieboy
Perhaps it was "enhanced sentencing" - which means extra time if you have prior convictions or use a weapon while commiting another crime?
-SIG , it's What's for Dinner-
know your rights!
"If I walk in the woods, I feel much more comfortable carrying a gun. What if you meet a bear in the woods that's going to attack you? You shoot it."
June 20th, 2011 07:08 PM
My civilian self defense weapon was a modified trigger with a nice crisp 4.5lb pull and modified magazine disconnect Browning Hi- Power. I also used original winchester black talon 9mm. Nobody even asked me about it. Nobody sensationalized it, nobody made any deal of it whatsoever. I guess if you live in one of those restrictive anti states, the DA, CAO, etc is more concerned with making a case against you than the person who threatened you. I would never live in one of those states. I was forced to during my military time but never by choice. FYI this happened in South Florida.
June 20th, 2011 08:43 PM
I would submit, that , as you describe, these mods would be of no concern to me.
I would rather die with good men than hide with cowards
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