What do you think is in the future for concealed carry holders vs criminals?

This is a discussion on What do you think is in the future for concealed carry holders vs criminals? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I suspect that it'll remain the same. I heard that there is a trend in people acquiring carry-conceal licenses but like some of you have ...

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  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    I suspect that it'll remain the same. I heard that there is a trend in people acquiring carry-conceal licenses but like some of you have said, a lot of people are not really carrying. I would like to think that forums like this will make a difference as more and more people develop an interest in carrying but I'm not sure if that trend (in education) has taken hold yet.

    At the same time people are starting to arm themselves at a higher rate than previously, the criminals aren't restricted by the same "rules" that the law abiding citizen holds to, etc. There is no reason why criminals can't always out-gun the law abiding citizen. They (criminals) after all do not have the limits of a budget restricting their attainment of firearms...because they just steal them! Do you think a criminal is really worried about the legality of having a hi-cap magazine? If he's going to steal a gun and is planning on committing acts of violence, I don't think he's worried about how many rounds his mag is holding.

    I'm not a huge Dennis Prager fan but I remember a quote that he made years ago; "You get what you tolerate". He explained if you tolerate dirty streets, you will have dirty streets. In other words, the level of violence we have is a reflection of how much we will allow. If criminals up the ante then I suspect society will do the same.

    It will be interesting to see what happens. Prepare for the worst and hope that you have prepared for no reason.
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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array ICTsnub's Avatar
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    Kansas breaks permits down by age and gender, the most likely Kansan with a concealed gun is a man between 50 and 60. Very nearly half of Kansas permits are held by people aged 50 to 70. I hope our numbers don't dwindle as that population passes on.

    Virtually any employer with an HR dept, or an employee handbook prohibits carry at work, but we have parking lot pre-emption, so you can be armed back and forth to work. I wonder how many carriers jump through that hoop daily, or just give up.

    In the four and a half years we have had carry, I have seen one news story about a permit holder(non resident at that) involved in a good shoot, and one involved in brandishing during a road rage event, that likely lost his permit.

    Since most permit holders probably put some effort into avoiding the seedier people and places that generate most of our violent crime, I would guess criminals worry more about meeting an armed scuz ball than a permit holder.

    I don't think it has had much effect on crime in Kansas, but I sure feel a little better when I put that gun on with my pants.
    I'm not a lawyer or a LEO, just a pantload with a computer.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    When I started carrying my SA went up 1,000%, it is truly hard to believe how clueless I was before CC.

    Law enforcement in a bad economy suffers hits to budgets and pay role, and man power etc.

    It may well be, take care of yourself as no one else is coming to the event.

    Just wait till they open the doors on the prisons because they can not house and feed the cons.

    If the Rule Of Laws is loosed or stretched so thin that 911 is a joke then skill with EDC will be very important.

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    Last edited by searcher 45; June 29th, 2011 at 09:21 PM.
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  5. #19
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    In the wild west days when most everyone wore a gun most people where shot in the back. Do you think anything will change if it comes back to more GG's with guns?
    I don't really have an opinion, I am hopeful, but I'm realistic as well. Widespread legal concealed carry is a "new thing" here in the US. I'm simply curious about the ultimate effect it might have on the future. Will it have any effect on lessening crime? Will BG's deal with it by changing their tactics?

    Here are a couple of noteworthy articles:

    1. This one is about criminal stats and CCW fla_model
    2. This one is about percentage of adults by state, who have permits Blog O'Stuff: Percentage of Adults With Carry Permits in "Shall Issue" States
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis1209 View Post
    If my crystal ball and tera cards arn't decieving me, I fortell things getting worse, much worse, here's why. We all know about the crappy economy, and I doubt it will improve anytime in the near future. That's a driving force but, IMHO, not the major factor with increasing crime. It's my opinion the government is responsible (Roosevelt & Johnson in particular) for the ENTITLEMENT mentality that affects a large portion of the population. The "you owes me" folks will take, not work, for what they want. Hope we never have another Katrina, earthquake, riot(s), etc. More and moe single parent kids are being hatched (I believe they were called ******** back in the day) that have parent that doesn't give a damn, their in it for the sex. A good portion of these "kids" join gangs to replace their unconcerned parent. If you look at the statistics, there are literally "millions" of gang bangers in the U.S. now, and are not confined to large cities either, their all over. They are increasing violent crimes of every kind. If the media even reports any of their crimes, seldom do they mention they were a gang member for some reason. Then we have the ever increasing population of drug addicts, who will do anything for their next fix. We need a war on drugs and a war on gangs, oh I forgot we did. Want to see how many criminals you have in your neighborhood, have a riot, economic turmoil, natural disaster, miss a welfare check, etc., and watch the looters come outof the wood work. Ya'll think I'm out to lunch?
    I believe you mean Tarot cards and no I don't believe you are crazy. I see a more dangerous future for us. CCW and being armed is the only way to assure personal and family safety. I agree that when the "give me, give me" crowd finds out our country can't afford them any further they will turn worse and more dangerous. They sure will not get a job or become productive members of society. I will not be a victim for this type and I am very sure I am not alone. It is best to realize now this is in our future. One must come to terms with actions that are left to the law abiding citizen. It will be them or me and I don't expect it to be me if there is anything I can do to stop it. Is my life and the well being of my loved ones worth less than the criminal dirt bag? I DON'T THINK SO!!
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
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    A armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one has to back it up with his life.
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  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit51 View Post
    I believe you mean Tarot cards and no I don't believe you are crazy. I see a more dangerous future for us. CCW and being armed is the only way to assure personal and family safety. I agree that when the "give me, give me" crowd finds out our country can't afford them any further they will turn worse and more dangerous. They sure will not get a job or become productive members of society. I will not be a victim for this type and I am very sure I am not alone. It is best to realize now this is in our future. One must come to terms with actions that are left to the law abiding citizen. It will be them or me and I don't expect it to be me if there is anything I can do to stop it. Is my life and the well being of my loved ones worth less than the criminal dirt bag? I DON'T THINK SO!!
    Unfortunately, even being armed is no assurance...that and your training (skills, mindset, SA, etc.) may stack the odds to your favor to some degree which is all we can really do. Given the tactics of some BG in some situations, the degree of of the odds may be minimal. You see instances every day where people comply and the BG kills them anyway with no real reason. What happens when that BG tactic morphs into kill the innocent person first then take what you want with no threat of resistance.
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  8. #22
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    America is just in the very beginning stages of a whole new era of extreme societal flux.
    People say that "We're Not Out Of The Woods Yet" - Sadly...we have not even gone INTO the woods yet.
    It's my personal belief that "life as we know it" is going to radically change and that things will happen sooner rather than later.
    I truly believe that it all ain't going to be real pretty.
    I don't really want to get into specifics because much depends on exactly what events occur that effect that change.
    The criminal element will always morph & adapt.
    One thing is certain - They will not redeem themselves and they will not become any less violent.
    They will simply change tactics as they always do.
    They will invent new and more insidious crimes and figure out the best ways to commit them.
    There will ALWAYS be easy targets since a certain large percentage of the American sheeple will always maintain perma-victim status.
    Criminals will ambush intended victims in larger overwhelming numbers.
    It is not just the career criminals that will be problematic.
    Much of the general population is already walking around on a short ticking-time-bomb fuse.
    The entitlement mentality is already rampant and getting worse.
    As the economy gets worse (and it can't do anything else but get worse) everything "not good" will escalate.
    As people in these modern times lose their homes and their life savings etc...they are not going to jump out of highrise windows like the did during the great depression...they are going to jump down your throat and take what you have.
    Of course....bad times will bring out the very best in a some folks but, the very worst in others.
    OK...I don't want to write a book on it here but, just please prepare for the worst and continue to hope that I'm wrong.
    I hope that I'm wrong but, I don't believe that I am. If you're paying attention...the indicators are everywhere.
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  9. #23
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    America is just in the very beginning stages of a whole new era of extreme societal flux.
    People say that "We're Not Out Of The Woods Yet" - Sadly...we have not even gone INTO the woods yet.
    It's my personal belief that "life as we know it" is going to radically change and that things will happen sooner rather than later.
    I truly believe that it all ain't going to be real pretty.
    I don't really want to get into specifics because much depends on exactly what events occur that effect that change.
    The criminal element will always morph & adapt.
    One thing is certain - They will not redeem themselves and they will not become any less violent.
    They will simply change tactics as they always do.
    They will invent new and more insidious crimes and figure out the best ways to commit them.
    There will ALWAYS be easy targets since a certain large percentage of the American sheeple will always maintain perma-victim status.
    Criminals will ambush intended victims in larger overwhelming numbers.
    It is not just the career criminals that will be problematic.
    Much of the general population is already walking around on a short ticking-time-bomb fuse.
    The entitlement mentality is already rampant and getting worse.
    As the economy gets worse (and it can't do anything else but get worse) everything "not good" will escalate.
    As people in these modern times lose their homes and their life savings etc...they are not going to jump out of highrise windows like the did during the great depression...they are going to jump down your throat and take what you have.
    Of course....bad times will bring out the very best in a some folks but, the very worst in others.
    OK...I don't want to write a book on it here but, just please prepare for the worst and continue to hope that I'm wrong.
    I hope that I'm wrong but, I don't believe that I am. If you're paying attention...the indicators are everywhere.
    100% agree with this post!!!!!!
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
    -J.R.R. Tolkien

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Well where do I start?

    It is hard to say how many have licenses. Even that one report was from 2004 and is out of date. Even those with licenses don't always carry. Plus to really shake up the numbers you can bet there are plenty of people who carry illegally.

    I still think the percentage is low enough that most criminals really don't give a second thought about it. Take a guy who has mugged 30 people, none of them had a gun. So why would he assume somebody in the next 30 people would? I think we'd have to get the percentage up closer to 10% before it would really make criminals start second guessing.

    Then somebody pointed out that crooks might just shoot first and ask questions later. Well, some of them already do that. That happened just recently here at a Ft.Worth gas station. But most criminals know the difference between assault and murder. Most crooks are not afraid of going to jail. They've been there before, it was a cake walk. Fortunately Texas still employs the death penalty and lots of crooks are afraid of that. They also know that if they kill somebody the cops are going to look a whole lot harder for the perpetrator than if they just steal $50 from a cash register. And when they are caught, they will be put to death. So I think there will be crooks that just kill people, but probably no more than we already have.

    The good news is that gun laws have really changed for the better in most states over the past few years.

    There is one thing that I think would probably help a lot. I know it is highly controversial, though. First and foremost I'd like to point out that I have never done any type of illegal drugs. Never so much as tried them, I have no desire to do so. In fact, I don't even consume alcohol. But I think legalizing marijuana would be beneficial. We could free up a lot of prison cells by removing the people who are simply in there for marijuana related crimes, including people who had to steal things to support their expensive habbit. Those prison cells can be then occupied by dangerous criminals.

    Let me give you an example of how backwards our system is. A male cousin of mine recently spend 2 years in prison because he was caught with a few child porn pictures on his computer. He didn't take the pictures and he's never hurt anyone before. I'm not saying what he did was right. But then I read recently about an arlington police officer was killed by this psycopath with a history of rape, robbery, and other assaults. he's been in and out of prison a dozen times. But he never spent more than about 6 weeks locked up before being back on the street. So why are there so many people in prison like my cousin, who didn't hurt anyone, yet dangerous criminals roam the streets? So we really need to change the laws to be more lenient on non-violent crimes and have mandatory sentences for those who are a danger to society.

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I dont see much changing. Society in general it losing its bearings...what used to be good is now bad, what used to be bad is now good and many people are growing up with no sense of right or wrong or direction in their lives.

    People are getting crazier by the day and the frustration level continues to get even higher. They are frustrated with the economy, frustrated with government, frustrated with work, frustrated by life itself and some of those people have the moral fortitude of a stray dog.

    While some things appear to get better, other things are getting worse. More people do seem to be arming themselves, but at the same time, more immoral heathens are being raised up that would kill you and laugh about it. It seems like we have more predators now than ever before and yet they can sense someone that will fight back so they pass on them and move on to easier targets.

    I would like to be able to say that more people are arming themselves, thus the crime rate goes down, but I dont see it happening that way.
    A lot of excellent responses in this thread so far. IMO, this one just struck me as right on the money, and is worth repeating.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  12. #26
    TVJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    America is just in the very beginning stages of a whole new era of extreme societal flux.
    People say that "We're Not Out Of The Woods Yet" - Sadly...we have not even gone INTO the woods yet.
    It's my personal belief that "life as we know it" is going to radically change and that things will happen sooner rather than later.
    I truly believe that it all ain't going to be real pretty.
    I don't really want to get into specifics because much depends on exactly what events occur that effect that change.
    The criminal element will always morph & adapt.
    One thing is certain - They will not redeem themselves and they will not become any less violent.
    They will simply change tactics as they always do.
    They will invent new and more insidious crimes and figure out the best ways to commit them.
    There will ALWAYS be easy targets since a certain large percentage of the American sheeple will always maintain perma-victim status.
    Criminals will ambush intended victims in larger overwhelming numbers.
    It is not just the career criminals that will be problematic.
    Much of the general population is already walking around on a short ticking-time-bomb fuse.
    The entitlement mentality is already rampant and getting worse.
    As the economy gets worse (and it can't do anything else but get worse) everything "not good" will escalate.
    As people in these modern times lose their homes and their life savings etc...they are not going to jump out of highrise windows :dead" like the did during the great depression...they are going to jump down your throat and take what you have.
    Of course....bad times will bring out the very best in a some folks but, the very worst in others.
    OK...I don't want to write a book on it here but, just please prepare for the worst and continue to hope that I'm wrong.
    I hope that I'm wrong but, I don't believe that I am. If you're paying attention...the indicators are everywhere.

    Yes.


    I expect both numbers of violent acts to increase as well as more intense violence to occur.

    I expect more group violence.

    I expect bad guys to get more violent/ambush more to lower their risk.

    When entitlements get pinched due to a lack of .gov funds, I expect the entitlement, mooch portion of the welfare culture to get more desperate/violent to eat/drug themselves as they project and blame others to justify.

    The mob wildings we see are a dangerous phenomenon that shows: a cultural disregard for lawlessness, a driving need by certain portions of the population to randomly hurt/maim/kill others as a thrill and to release the pressure of their own generalized anger/disenfranchisement.

    Wildings/flashmobs/etc break down cultural and psychological inhibitors for the individual to commit random, brutal violence. I suggest that "doing" wildings chips away at the individuals fear of acting violently -either individually or with another/few others.

    Movement of and during wildings looks like it has properties of fluid dynamics.


    Lastly, I expect movement towards less freedom and more of a police state as the financial corporate kleptocracy tightens its grip on .gov power.

    The white collar lawlessness from these individuals within the financial sector that brought a $13 trillion dollar US economy to its knees and within days of a sudden economic stop around September 19, 2008 is breathless.

    Virtually none are in jail, none have been disgorged of their ill gotten bonuses, the Federal Reserve and .gov bailed them all out at TAXPAYER expense. What precident does that set? What Moral Hazard does that entrench and allow?

    While the US is the dominant global superpower and holds the worlds Reserve Currency, I expect our own version of South Africa/Argentina violence here.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

  13. #27
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    More CCW = less violent crime. If you haven't read John Lott's books then you may not be familiar with the research he performed several years ago. Typically counties which have CCW experienced violent crime rate reductions significantly greater than those without CCW. The statistical evidence is significant and strongly favors CCW as a deterrent. More research in this area is needed, but I feel confident that future results correlating the number of concealed carry holders with reductions in violent crime would offer no surprises.

  14. #28
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    Quick response, I actually agree with HG's view that people are crazier by the day.

    There are many things we (society) can do to lessen violent crime but we seem to lack both the will and the money, and agreement amongst ourselves on what to do about the largest element ---illegal drug use and the violent crime that goes with it.

    There are very many categories of crime and criminality, and CC will affect (if it has an effect) only the street mugger and home invader. It won't deter illegal drug use. It won't deter white collar crime. It won't deter child predators. It won't deter those who deal in human traffic.
    It won't deter violent crimes committed in a moment of extreme anger or passion or emotion.

  15. #29
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    According to the news reports, 1 in 10 adults in my city has a handgun permit. Even so, I've not seen crime dropping all that much. The whole socio-economic climate is changing. I see more crimes where the young are preying on the old and infirm. I think that trend will continue to increase. As governments slash budgets, I don't see police protection increasing any in the near future. Prisons in California are already under a court order to start emptying out the prisoners. That will follow in other states.

    "Clockwork Orange", "Mad Max", take your pick. The savages, the hoodlums, and the gangs are coming. It's just a matter of time.

  16. #30
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    There is no simple answer. From a collapsing socio-economic society to a revolving-door justice system, we face a plethora of problems.
    Indicators show that state and federal governments are actually afraid to cut welfare and entitlement programs for fear that chronic leaches will turn to violent crime to get what they want. Police departments are already under-manned, under-funded and ill-prepared to cope with crime surges. Jails are over-crowded. All but the most dangerous offenders are slapped on the wrist and turned back into the street to try again. Non-violent criminals and first offenders most likely will never see jail time. White collar criminals can afford lawyers who will keep them free.
    Being a crooked politician is is reaching the top of a criminal food chain and next to crimes against seniors is the most devious because the perp's abuse the trust which allows them to take advantage of their victims.
    IMHO all the indicators are in place for the demise of our country and our way of life as we know it.

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