May have to reconsider chambering a round. - Page 4

May have to reconsider chambering a round.

This is a discussion on May have to reconsider chambering a round. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Tueller Drill is a good reason to carry with one chambered. It was determined that the average attacker could cover 21 feet and stab the ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array Shaughn's Avatar
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    Tueller Drill is a good reason to carry with one chambered.

    It was determined that the average attacker could cover 21 feet and stab the defender, the time was 1.5 seconds.

    Now, if you can clear your cover garment, draw your weapon, charge it and get out of harms way in that 1.5 seconds and successfully engage the threat, before the threat can react to you then you stand a chance to survive otherwise, you are defensive with a club while he is slashing and stabbing, not the place you want to be.

    I carry in a Thumb break holster (If I want to carry on company property, their rules) I can clear my cover garment and draw in 1.5 seconds from a Don Hume H726, with a lot of practice and get off a near contact shot while moving to avoid getting a knife in the chest, we used 3D targets mounted on remote control vehicles to simulate an attacker. More than once there was a collision, requiring the use of my left arm to prevent a stab to the chest or actually take a stab to the forearm (we used rubber training knives with chalk) to allow me to push off the attacker to engage, this means that many times my left arm was theoretically out of commission and the attacker was in my face and given that we weighted the target (150 - 180 lbs) this wasn't like having a piece of plastic run into you, it was actual physical mass.

    The recent shooting in Dayton, Ohio is another case in point.

    2 on one with the victim having his pistol secured in the center console of his vehicle, he was using one arm to hold himself in the vehicle while attempting to get his pistol with the other , in his words there would have been no way for him to have charged the pistol if it had been carried with the chamber empty, he got his pistol and engaged the threat, threat ceased to be one and the rest is a foot note in history.

    On letting a child go basically unsupervised to retrieve "ANYTHING" from a gunlocker NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! "A moments inattention can lead to a life time of grief" as my dad use to say, you were lucky.
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  2. #47
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    I don't carry one in the chamber, either.

    Instead, I carry with 5 in the cylinder
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    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  3. #48
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Chris.....ya can't fix stupid

    in this case it has to run its course. Like his promised Forum " Carry UnChambered." what happened to it??
    and in 2009 there were posts that sounded, read like his, just younger---what became of the idea than.....died still born.

    and a 2007 google has him, or someone who sounds like him, floating that idea than.....also still born.

    than there is his 'alive by the grace of god' child.
    his foolishness did its best to kill her.

    as an instructor going back to the early 1990's i have never come across the likes of his mindset. questions; certainly. and answered in a few sentances, a fast demonstration and than move on to what is real in the world. i mentally throw him out of my classroom now.
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  4. #49
    Member Array JohnWFD's Avatar
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    I always carry with one in the chamber......never have had a problem
    "A free people ought to be armed." - George Washington

  5. #50
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Okay guys.. I really hate that we've come to the insult fest again.. Let me clear some things up and explain what is wrong with this forum and some of the people on it:

    When a person (not just me, I've seen others) comes to this forum and admits a mistake, the response should be something like this:

    "Wow, I'm glad you learned your lesson on that. Thanks for posting so that nobody else will make that mistake."

    But instead, we get responses like "You are criminally negligent and should have all of your firearms taken away and should be arrested and have your children put in foster care."

    And then when I try to explain the circumstances to prove my character, it is assumed that I am trying to deny responsibility. That is just not the case. I'm trying to bring people's mind at ease that I am actually very safety minded in my use of firearms and that I have readily and repeatedly admitted my mistakes, learned from them, and taken steps to make sure it will not happen again. I only go into this because I do not want my entire reputation based on a 15-second segment of my life. Everybody has done something stupid at one point or another, how would you like your entire life to be judged by that one stupid thing? That is what happens on this board. On other boards I'm on, people start to get to know one another and develop friendships. That doesn't seem to happen around here. It is more like the lunchroom of a junior highschool with different clicks of immature kids.

    So when I posted this original post about the sweaty hands, I was actually hoping to help somebody else who might be also carrying unchambered to rethink their decision or at least to test if they can chamber their gun with sweaty or otherwise wet hands. The response I should have gotten was, "Thanks for that information, I'm glad you found out about that and shared with us." Instead I get responses like, "you are an idiot for carrying a gun unchambered, we told you so, now you can eat crow."

    The whole insult-fest over carrying unchambered is mystifying to me. If I carry an unchambered gun and by some freak chance I get in a situation that I loose my life over because I couldn't defend myself, then who is hurt? Any of you guys? No, I have to live with the consequences of my choice. Yet, the replies I receive are so condemning you would think I posted that I like to drive down the highway and randomly shoot off rounds out of my window. In such a case, it would make sense to condemn the person because their choice is hurting other people. So one might think that everybody here really just cares so much about me and my personal safety. But lets face it, I am pretty sure half of the people on here would be happy to see me killed in some incident just so that they could prove that they were right.

    The saddest part is that everybody claims I'm always crying about being picked on, like I got my feelings hurt. Really, that isn't the case. I'm done being picked on. I'm not going to be a victim anymore, I made that decision years ago. You guys don't hurt my feelings at all. I just feel sorry for some of you because you are so narrow minded and illogical.

    The best example I can give of how I feel about this.... I'm a big proponent of electric cars. But there are a lot of people out there that hate me for it. They are always attacking me telling me stupid, ridiculous things such as "your electric car pollutes more than my Hummer because your car runs on coal." Of course, it seems logical in their mind, but when I start going over the facts when them and they start realizing how wrong they are, they sort of just start insulting me. Since they can't fight me with facts, they just start insulting me because that is the only weapon they have left. That is pretty much what happens here. When people tell me I should change my ways to be like them, and then I argue back using facts and logic, it seems the logic shortly disappear and the insults begin.

    So believe me guys - when you start insulting me, then I know I'm winning an argument. If you continue to present me with facts and logic, I analyze it. If it turns out I'm wrong, then I will happily admit it. That's the kind of person I am. If you knew me better, then you'd already know that.

  6. #51
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    then when I try to explain the circumstances to prove my character

    actions speak louder than words. you are trying to do the 'entitlement generation shuffle' of explaining away your (thoughtless) actions with words that are twisted to mean what you want them too.

    pleased am i that you think you are winning an agruement.....one by the which is more between your ears than in any reality shared by the many here.

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  7. #52
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    Okay guys.. I really hate that we've come to the insult fest again.. Let me clear some things up and explain what is wrong with this forum and some of the people on it:

    When a person (not just me, I've seen others) comes to this forum and admits a mistake, the response should be something like this:

    "Wow, I'm glad you learned your lesson on that. Thanks for posting so that nobody else will make that mistake."

    But instead, we get responses like "You are criminally negligent and should have all of your firearms taken away and should be arrested and have your children put in foster care."

    And then when I try to explain the circumstances to prove my character, it is assumed that I am trying to deny responsibility. That is just not the case. I'm trying to bring people's mind at ease that I am actually very safety minded in my use of firearms and that I have readily and repeatedly admitted my mistakes, learned from them, and taken steps to make sure it will not happen again. I only go into this because I do not want my entire reputation based on a 15-second segment of my life. Everybody has done something stupid at one point or another, how would you like your entire life to be judged by that one stupid thing? That is what happens on this board. On other boards I'm on, people start to get to know one another and develop friendships. That doesn't seem to happen around here. It is more like the lunchroom of a junior highschool with different clicks of immature kids.

    So when I posted this original post about the sweaty hands, I was actually hoping to help somebody else who might be also carrying unchambered to rethink their decision or at least to test if they can chamber their gun with sweaty or otherwise wet hands. The response I should have gotten was, "Thanks for that information, I'm glad you found out about that and shared with us." Instead I get responses like, "you are an idiot for carrying a gun unchambered, we told you so, now you can eat crow."

    The whole insult-fest over carrying unchambered is mystifying to me. If I carry an unchambered gun and by some freak chance I get in a situation that I loose my life over because I couldn't defend myself, then who is hurt? Any of you guys? No, I have to live with the consequences of my choice. Yet, the replies I receive are so condemning you would think I posted that I like to drive down the highway and randomly shoot off rounds out of my window. In such a case, it would make sense to condemn the person because their choice is hurting other people. So one might think that everybody here really just cares so much about me and my personal safety. But lets face it, I am pretty sure half of the people on here would be happy to see me killed in some incident just so that they could prove that they were right.

    The saddest part is that everybody claims I'm always crying about being picked on, like I got my feelings hurt. Really, that isn't the case. I'm done being picked on. I'm not going to be a victim anymore, I made that decision years ago. You guys don't hurt my feelings at all. I just feel sorry for some of you because you are so narrow minded and illogical.

    The best example I can give of how I feel about this.... I'm a big proponent of electric cars. But there are a lot of people out there that hate me for it. They are always attacking me telling me stupid, ridiculous things such as "your electric car pollutes more than my Hummer because your car runs on coal." Of course, it seems logical in their mind, but when I start going over the facts when them and they start realizing how wrong they are, they sort of just start insulting me. Since they can't fight me with facts, they just start insulting me because that is the only weapon they have left. That is pretty much what happens here. When people tell me I should change my ways to be like them, and then I argue back using facts and logic, it seems the logic shortly disappear and the insults begin.

    So believe me guys - when you start insulting me, then I know I'm winning an argument. If you continue to present me with facts and logic, I analyze it. If it turns out I'm wrong, then I will happily admit it. That's the kind of person I am. If you knew me better, then you'd already know that.
    Would you like a tissue?
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  8. #53
    Senior Member Array Vaquero 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    So believe me guys - when you start insulting me, then I know I'm winning an argument. If you continue to present me with facts and logic, I analyze it. If it turns out I'm wrong, then I will happily admit it. That's the kind of person I am. If you knew me better, then you'd already know that.
    If someone has been presented with logical, sound arguments for their position, and nearly 100% of the community agrees with the logic and basis for the position, then the holder of the contrary position obstinately refuses to acknowledge the fact that he may indeed be wrong, it is human nature to throw one's hands up and disregard the person as a hard-headed buffoon. This hardly indicates that one has "won" an argument. Insults, although not polite, can often be descriptive and accurate.

    How many LE officers, government agents, and others who use firearms on a daily basis and depend on them to save lives, carry with an empty chamber? That simple observation would be enough to convince a thinking person of the logic of carrying a firearm in a ready condition.

    Your whole issue with carrying a chambered round boils down to this: You don't trust yourself. Judging by the content of your posts, including your attitude towards supervising children around firearms, I tend to agree with your self-assessment.

    Good luck.
    thephanatik and 9MMare like this.
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  9. #54
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    actions speak louder than words. you are trying to do the 'entitlement generation shuffle' of explaining away your (thoughtless) actions with words that are twisted to mean what you want them too.
    And all you are doing is trying to make yourself feel superior by putting somebody else down. That is called an inferiority complex. I believe you have one and there is help available at your neighborhood psychologist. You should seek training and help from them.

    Speaking of entitlement, I'm probably paying for your social security and medicare out of the taxes taken from my business.

    See.. I CAN stoop to your level. I can insult people too. As most on here will notice, I don't generally do that. But if you prefer it this way, I suppose I can lower myself to your level.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    Okay guys.. I really hate that we've come to the insult fest again.. Let me clear some things up and explain what is wrong with this forum and some of the people on it:
    ...
    I do not know if you are referring to my post or not, but it was not my intention to insult you in any way. I just told you my opinion, and I meant well. I truly apologize if you consider that I insulted you. However, I still believe that safe firearm handling is your responsibility and not your 8-years-old daughter's responsibility. And I am pretty sure that if you know a little more about how your firearm works and you implement the firearm safety rules in a better way then you will not fear to carry it chambered.



    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    And all you are doing is trying to make yourself feel superior by putting somebody else down. That is called an inferiority complex. I believe you have one and there is help available at your neighborhood psychologist. You should seek training and help from them.

    Speaking of entitlement, I'm probably paying for your social security and medicare out of the taxes taken from my business.

    See.. I CAN stoop to your level. I can insult people too. As most on here will notice, I don't generally do that. But if you prefer it this way, I suppose I can lower myself to your level.
    I am sorry for saying this sir, but I believe that your last post might be a little out of line.



    In any case, I do wish you good luck in the future. Goodbye.
    "The Second Amendment: America's Original Homeland Security"

  11. #56
    Member Array RockBottom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gruntingfrog View Post
    Yes, and your TCP user manual specifies that criminals aren't allowed to use it (see below). These things are thrown in as an attempt to prevent lawsuits not because they are functionally true. The Sig P238 has a firing pin block and is drop safe when carried in Condition 1. They most likely put in the reference to it going off if dropped to (attempt to) protect themselves in case there is a manufacturing flaw.

    http://www.taurususa.com/pdf/manual_TCP_50062247.pdf
    You pretty much covered it. The manufacturer knows that the gun will not fire if the chamber is empty. Telling you to keep the chamber empty covers their butt under any and all circumstances. They really aren't all that concerned with you and your encounter against bad guys. They just want to stay out of court themselves.

    I was taught to carry unchambered in the military. As far as I know, the military still carries that way outside of war zones. But, I wouldn't carry a revolver with an empty chamber. That would be silly. It's also silly to carry any modern, quality, semi-automatic pistol with the chamber empty. They won't accidentally discharge as long as you don't "accidentally" pull the trigger. Both my Sigs require over ten pounds of trigger pull in double action. All my holsters completely cover the trigger and trigger guard on my pistols. There's no way that they are just going to go off by themselves.

  12. #57
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    adric----have you perhaps even noticed that your own shadow has left you.

    truly, the shame that the entire forum is against you and, and ......and you are the one who is right.
    accumulated hundreds of years of shooting experience by the DC members pales under your paltry handful of 'i think it works like this......' inexperience.

    how silly of us to not recognize a leader of your (Unchambered) caliber.
    so i am going to turn in my decades worth of teaching credentials and move to Ft Worth to be near you--my new teacher.
    and does your therapist have an opening for one as unworthy as i? though, on 2nd thought, she has not done very well by you---
    perhaps she can recommend someone better than herself....a lot better.
    Vaquero 45 likes this.
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  13. #58
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero 45 View Post
    If someone has been presented with logical, sound arguments for their position, and nearly 100% of the community agrees with the logic and basis for the position, then the holder of the contrary position obstinately refuses to acknowledge the fact that he may indeed be wrong, it is human nature to throw one's hands up and disregard the person as a hard-headed buffoon. This hardly indicates that one has "won" an argument. Insults, although not polite, can often be descriptive and accurate
    I have on many occasions admitted that the position of the pro-chambered people have valid points. I have even admitted that I DO CARRY CHAMBERED from time to time, when going to a more risky part of town. (nobody ever seems to remember that part). Sort of like when I said once per year I carry a .22 caliber, suddenly people read into it that I carry a .22 caliber everyday. Or that when I said there is a million-to-once chance I might fire a warning shot, it gets contorted into that I would always fire a warning shot. Then other people see me incorrectly quoted and get a bad feeling about me.

    Yet, I have also pointed out the irrefutable evidence of accidental discharges and repeatedly asked for some statistics that show it is safer to carry chambered vs. unchambered. I have seen no official studies or statistics to point to this. I have also repeatedly said that I have considered switching to carrying chambered all of the time, which means I'm not discounting what other people say. But for some reason, I am looked upon as the person who advocates carrying unchambered and tries to proselytize to other people my way of doing things. it just isn't the case.

    What is really boils down to is a handful of about 3 -4 people who do not like me because I threaten them in some way with my beliefs. I suspect it is because I have a differing opinion to them and that is exactly what it is, an opinion. it is sort of like a fight between catholics and protestants. I would say 95% of the people on this forum are not to blame, except in the fact that they do not stand up in the face of tyranny. Instead, they send me private messages telling me they support me, but don't want to be known for fear of retribution.

    The sad part is that we're all supposed to be on the same side. But it seems we're not.

  14. #59
    Member Array RockBottom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    I have on many occasions admitted that the position of the pro-chambered people have valid points. I have even admitted that I DO CARRY CHAMBERED from time to time, when going to a more risky part of town. (nobody ever seems to remember that part). Sort of like when I said once per year I carry a .22 caliber, suddenly people read into it that I carry a .22 caliber everyday. Or that when I said there is a million-to-once chance I might fire a warning shot, it gets contorted into that I would always fire a warning shot. Then other people see me incorrectly quoted and get a bad feeling about me.

    Yet, I have also pointed out the irrefutable evidence of accidental discharges and repeatedly asked for some statistics that show it is safer to carry chambered vs. unchambered. I have seen no official studies or statistics to point to this. I have also repeatedly said that I have considered switching to carrying chambered all of the time, which means I'm not discounting what other people say. But for some reason, I am looked upon as the person who advocates carrying unchambered and tries to proselytize to other people my way of doing things. it just isn't the case.

    What is really boils down to is a handful of about 3 -4 people who do not like me because I threaten them in some way with my beliefs. I suspect it is because I have a differing opinion to them and that is exactly what it is, an opinion. it is sort of like a fight between catholics and protestants. I would say 95% of the people on this forum are not to blame, except in the fact that they do not stand up in the face of tyranny. Instead, they send me private messages telling me they support me, but don't want to be known for fear of retribution.

    The sad part is that we're all supposed to be on the same side. But it seems we're not.
    At one time, I was a proponent of carrying unchambered. That military training is hard to undo all at once. The drill sergeants that I worked with were pretty good at winning you over to their way of thinking, if you know what I mean. But, handguns have improved a lot over the last fifty years. Times change and even old dogs can learn new tricks.

    You can carry any way that you wish and it's fine with me, because my life won't be affected one way or another by the manner that you choose.

  15. #60
    Member Array Shaughn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    And all you are doing is trying to make yourself feel superior by putting somebody else down. That is called an inferiority complex. I believe you have one and there is help available at your neighborhood psychologist. You should seek training and help from them.

    Speaking of entitlement, I'm probably paying for your social security and medicare out of the taxes taken from my business.

    See.. I CAN stoop to your level. I can insult people too. As most on here will notice, I don't generally do that. But if you prefer it this way, I suppose I can lower myself to your level.
    Sir, If you are this enlightened soul looking for quality dialogue, Coming off as a whiny child, because people are pointing out the Fallacy in your beliefs, with information from training regimens and actual events to back their claims and instead of providing factual training and real world information that refutes their argument (not bureaucratic regulations that take the place of training) and supports your own position, not anecdotal evidence posted about alleged AD's, which in reallity are ND's usually caused by mucking around with said firearm, you claim they are insulting you, then may I suggest you ask for the thread to be closed and take your toys and go to those boards where as you put it they pat you on the back and say what a good boy you are.

    Finally...On letting a child go basically unsupervised to retrieve "ANYTHING" from a gunlocker NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! "A moments inattention can lead to a life time of grief" as my dad use to say, you were lucky! So if someone calls you an idiot, sit back and take it, because it shouldn't have happened in the first place!

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