May have to reconsider chambering a round.

This is a discussion on May have to reconsider chambering a round. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As most know, I've been involved in many arguments on here about chambered vs. unchambered. There have been many valid points brought up in the ...

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Thread: May have to reconsider chambering a round.

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    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    May have to reconsider chambering a round.

    As most know, I've been involved in many arguments on here about chambered vs. unchambered. There have been many valid points brought up in the past which suggest chambering may be the right way to go. But so far have not been sufficient to change my mind. However, something happened today which nobody has ever mentioned and I had never thought of before. My wife and I went to the range today and I decided to shoot my little Taurus TCP 738. I actually rarely shoot that gun, because it is not fun to shoot. But with the hot weather lately, I've been carrying it more and more because it is much easier to conceal when wearing shorts and a t-shirt. So I figured if I carry this thing, I should put some rounds through it. Well, as many know it has been quite hot around here lately. It was 102 degrees outside today. When I first got into the range, I was still sweating from being outside. I was unable to chamber a round in that TCP because the slide is so small, has such a strong spring, and my hands were sweaty. My hand would literally just slide right off the slide like it was coated in vaseline or something. My wife tried and also was unable to do it. After I rubbed my hands on my shorts to dry them off a bit, I was finally able to do it. I could just see myself trying to chamber a round with sweaty hands while the BG is trying to kill me.

    This would not have been a problem on my usual carry gun, the Glock 19. The slide is much larger and has a better grip. In fact, I can chamber a round in the Glock using the bottom of my shoe, and other methods I've practiced. But there was little I could do on this TCP. So I may just have to start carrying that one chambered, especially during the Summer which is the time I'm most likely to carry that gun anyway.

    Ironically, my wife pointed out to me something in the manual to her new SIG P238. There is a section which explicitly tells the user that they should not keep a round chambered unless firing the gun and also warns that if the gun is dropped it may fire accidentally. ?!?!?

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  3. #2
    Member Array Ianator's Avatar
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    I respect others choices in their carry methods. But I always carry chambered. This is an interesting thought though and I am glad you brought it up. Always good to have different thoughts and perspectives on situations.

    Also, what if it has been raining or something? that would be another scenario where you might have less than desirable dexterity with the digits.

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    Senior Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    It's not just about sweaty - what about rain? what about blood?

    We're not soldiers. We're not cops. We don't necessarily get to choose when our engagements take place or how they take place. Sweaty palms and fingers from running away or having just held your child's hands as you led them across the street on a hot and muggy day, bloody from having tried to defend yourself - or perhaps you were just caught in the rain or your hands are numbingly cold (and wet) from having picked up your dropped keys in the snow...there are many reasons why your grip could be diminished/compromised.

    Holding on to that "sweating" soda can or water bottle when things go awry?

    All things to think about.

    Now, I remember we'd talked a little about the grip-strength concern, in terms of chambering a round and in terms of malfunction remediation for smaller autopistols, here: Need advice for wife. - indeed, I feel bad, I forgot to mention the issue of compromised traction/friction. :embarrassed: I'm glad that you found out about that, on the range, rather than in an actual event!

    Nevertheless, it cannot be said that such considerations have never been mentioned:

    Preparedness Discussion Thread For Those Who Carry Unchambered - look at QKshooter's post, the 5th one in that thread.



    -------


    Edit: Looks like I need to stop taking coffee breaks between posts.

    Getting back to that rain thing....

    For my low-light class, there was forecasted rain on the night of the training. 11 people signed-up for the class. 4 cancelled two days prior, and 3 more did the same the day before.

    The four of us who showed up eventually got drenched, but you know what? We learned to shoot in some rather interesting conditions - mud on the ground trying to suck our boots off, lightning flashes strobing the background, rain pouring off our ball-cap rims and steam fogging up our glasses.

    While it's not something that I'd necessarily pay to do again (that's not to say that I'd back-out of such a class-day - I'm just using those words to try to convey how miserable we were, at times, during that class), I know now that I can still get my hits under such conditions.

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    I respect your right to do as you please.
    however....

    carring a gun with an unchambered round is about the silliest practice I have ever heard of.

    You are either serious about self defense or you are not.
    Last edited by Bumper; July 4th, 2011 at 12:33 AM.
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    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    when you said you were going to turn me off, i guess you did cause i mentioned that sweat and humidity, even blood from a band-aided wound could mess you up. well, better you come around to reality while still able to, to make the training necessary to be able to feel comfortable with a round chambered: as in better late than never.
    and thumb up for being man enough to speak openly.

    though if i am still on your Do Not Disturb list....you still no see this. too funny.

    ----->manual speak is often Lawyer Speak---CYA--and one often needs a instructor to help 'read' the manual. until experience makes it clear for between the lines meanings.

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    seems you are back to your old ways.....some day there may be a tragic news story....along the lines of....."Two young adults thought enough to arm themselves against possible attack were both found dead this rainy morning. Each had in their hands a gun with no rounds in the chambers. Cause of death appears to be multiple stab wounds. Robbery appears to be the motive as no purse or wallet was found at the scene. Police are investigating. The primary question concerning how it is that they were carrying guns that were not properly loaded may never be known. The police spokswomen notes that the guns not being taken is a tribute to the strict "Felon with guns go to jail policy."
    Last edited by claude clay; July 3rd, 2011 at 03:02 PM.
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    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    when you said you were going to turn me off, i guess you did cause i mentioned that sweat and humidity, even blood from a band-aided wound could mess you up.
    I just removed everyone from my ignore list a couple of days ago... hoping the insult sessions were over for a while. So I probably never saw the other post. Even if I did, I probably didn't pay much attention because, like I pointed out in my original post, this would not affect me being able to chamber a round with my Glock. I even put that to the test today. And also, as mentioned, I've trained in a variety of ways of chambering a round with out using my hand. But none of those methods will work on that little TCP.

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    Senior Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    adric22 - I keep editing my reply to you, for that, I apologize...I just kept finding things that I thought was important to bring up.

    I'll make another post, here, though - since I think this goes beyond my original reply.

    My question to you, now that you've seen a potential technical problem with carrying without one in the chamber -i.e. requiring that you rack the slide before you can engage- is whether or not if you've engaged in the Force-on-Force scenarios that several of us have recommended, to see if you can access your firearm and successfully execute that first-round-rack, under more compromising (albeit quite real) situations. I know that tokerblue was a strong advocate for this kind of acid-test, and I'll cite one of his past posts below:

    Quote Originally Posted by tokerblue
    Not to derail this debate even longer, but if people truly want to carry with a round unchambered, the supporters should start discussing solutions to tactical situations that will make it difficult to rack a slide. These are situations that you need to think about and think of a solution around. The videos of fast Israeli carry are nice, but the Youtube videos are only for the ideal situation where you are standing with both hands free.

    On your back with an attacker on top of you.
    Methods of racking the slide with one hand.
    Clearing drills for chambering jams, etc.
    Firearms where a manual rack isn't suggested (Kahr).
    I know you've practiced support/reaction/weak-hand drills, but have you practiced that while someone is coming at you? Have you tried to draw and rack the slide of your autopistol after you've been taken to the ground - whether it be that person actively tries to resist your attempts to get to your firearm, or if the simulated aggressor was simply instructed to "try to take you out as violently as possible?"

    Just get your wife to be the BG.

    You've stated before that she's not as strong as you - so that's actually perfect, as that should actually allow you the upper hand in getting to your Glock and to chamber - but with her on top of you and fighting you, can you actually do it? (Of-course, you'll want to be absolutely sure that you've cleared your weapon, before testing, but if you'd rather, I'd actually say that an el-cheapo spring-powered single-shot airsoft replica from the local WalMart will do just as well.) What if she's rushing you, as JD and limalife demonstrated in their Force-on-Force YouTube video?

    As with before, I'm not trying to convince you - or anyone else, for that matter - to carry either chambered or not.

    I'm simply suggesting that whatever you choose to do, make sure you are REALLY doing your due-diligence in your training, to account for *anything* that's possible.

    We carry not to justify statistics. We carry on the vary, very, very off chance that we may one day meet with that violence and evil which we are all trying to avoid or escape. We train towards the unlikely and the impossible, so that if it does happen, we're prepared.

  9. #8
    Ex Member Array G19inLV's Avatar
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    Guns should be carried chambered, they were designed that way. They won't "just go off" as long as you use a proper holster. If you are scared of premature dischargation upon unholstering, practice. But carry chambered. You think it was hard chambering with a sweaty hand, try chambering normally, under stress. It's not easy, and those precious seconds can cost you your life.

  10. #9
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    But none of those methods will work on that little TCP.

    certain things are designed to operate in definate ways. some allow for other methods but it is a side effect rather than a designed in attribute. bottom line is that while life is not always easy, it gets hard, harder faster, the more you move away from 'its intended' methodology. thus training to operate a piece of equipment as it is intended or get something designed for 'as-you-wish-it-to-be.

    your learning curve is flat......sadly, that one who has an education can turn off learning on a whim; its a skill one shold not boast about.
    Last edited by claude clay; July 3rd, 2011 at 03:15 PM.
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    Member Array Ianator's Avatar
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    It seems, Yet again, we cannot discuss the facts of an issue without pointing fingers to each others side calling out flaws.

    Instead of something like "This is indeed another reason I carry chambered" or something to the like. We must use this as a chance to pounce on people who have different beliefs.

    I am taking this as my chance to bow out.

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    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    I just removed everyone from my ignore list a couple of days ago... hoping the insult sessions were over for a while. So I probably never saw the other post. Even if I did, I probably didn't pay much attention because, like I pointed out in my original post, this would not affect me being able to chamber a round with my Glock. I even put that to the test today. And also, as mentioned, I've trained in a variety of ways of chambering a round with out using my hand. But none of those methods will work on that little TCP.
    I think the most important thing that you've learned is that you are needlessly inserting an opportunity for one more thing to go wrong in a critical situation. You can't account for the undiscovered glitches that will prevent you from chambering a round -- the best time to load the chamber is under controlled circumstances... not when someone is trying to murder you. Heck, you couldn't even do it at the range, and you have no way of knowing what will stop you next time.

    Also, I didn't feel the need to pile on you earlier, but it is apparent that your preference for empty chambers has given you a lackadaisical attitude regarding gun safety. You let your young daughter have access to a loaded weapon (nay, you told her to go pick it up, unsupervised) simply because you thought the chamber was empty. I suggest that now is the time for you to accept that weapons are dangerous and deadly by design and treat them accordingly. Iconoclasm is not serving you well, here.

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    Senior Member Array Skeeter64's Avatar
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    It's great that you were able to find this out in a safe environment. Good luck with however you decide to carry the Taurus when you do carry it.

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    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    As most know, I've been involved in many arguments on here about chambered vs. unchambered. There have been many valid points brought up in the past which suggest chambering may be the right way to go. But so far have not been sufficient to change my mind. However, something happened today which nobody has ever mentioned and I had never thought of before. My wife and I went to the range today and I decided to shoot my little Taurus TCP 738. I actually rarely shoot that gun, because it is not fun to shoot. But with the hot weather lately, I've been carrying it more and more because it is much easier to conceal when wearing shorts and a t-shirt. So I figured if I carry this thing, I should put some rounds through it. Well, as many know it has been quite hot around here lately. It was 102 degrees outside today. When I first got into the range, I was still sweating from being outside. I was unable to chamber a round in that TCP because the slide is so small, has such a strong spring, and my hands were sweaty. My hand would literally just slide right off the slide like it was coated in vaseline or something. My wife tried and also was unable to do it. After I rubbed my hands on my shorts to dry them off a bit, I was finally able to do it. I could just see myself trying to chamber a round with sweaty hands while the BG is trying to kill me.

    This would not have been a problem on my usual carry gun, the Glock 19. The slide is much larger and has a better grip. In fact, I can chamber a round in the Glock using the bottom of my shoe, and other methods I've practiced. But there was little I could do on this TCP. So I may just have to start carrying that one chambered, especially during the Summer which is the time I'm most likely to carry that gun anyway.

    Ironically, my wife pointed out to me something in the manual to her new SIG P238. There is a section which explicitly tells the user that they should not keep a round chambered unless firing the gun and also warns that if the gun is dropped it may fire accidentally. ?!?!?
    You might want to re read your other thread again. Preparedness Discussion Thread For Those Who Carry Unchambered

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    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    Also, I didn't feel the need to pile on you earlier, but it is apparent that your preference for empty chambers has given you a lackadaisical attitude regarding gun safety. You let your young daughter have access to a loaded weapon (nay, you told her to go pick it up, unsupervised) simply because you thought the chamber was empty. I suggest that now is the time for you to accept that weapons are dangerous and deadly by design and treat them accordingly. Iconoclasm is not serving you well, here.
    I would certainly have to disagree with this. In fact it is my exceptional regard for safety that has kept me carrying unchambered all of these years. That, plus all of the stories of accidental discharges. I'm sure all of those people probably thought it would never happen to them either.

    In regards to the story with my daughter, you have your facts wrong. In that situation, she was told to grab an airsoft gun out of the gun safe which was 15 feet away from where we were shooting other airsoft guns in the backyard. That safe is (normally) always locked, filled with unloaded guns, all of which have barrel locks in them except for my carry-gun (glock 19) which is kept loaded. For some bizarre reason she mistook that one for the airsoft gun she was supposed to be getting. The same airsoft gun she has gotten any number of times while I was standing there at the safe with her supervising her. In retrospect, she probably grabbed that one because all of the other guns have the barrel locks so she probably thought that because it didn't have the barrel lock, it must have been an airsoft gun. And yes - I was very happy that day that the Glock was not chambered. So no, I did not tell her to go pick up a loaded weapon, as your post suggests.

    For anyone who is unable to understand why I have always carried unchambered.. Here's the reason. I've counted up all of the stories I've heard about accidental discaharges on one hand, and then all of the stories of people who were killed because they were unable to chamber a round in time to protect themselves. Well, the first hand doesn't have enough fingers and the second hand has no fingers raised. So that is pretty much the reason.

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    RKM
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    It's not drop safe? Does it have a firing pin block? Even my Kel-Tec is drop safe. I've proved this.... not on purpose

    Most firearms manual's will tell you, keep firearm unloaded until ready to shoot. It's so they don't get sued when somebody ND's. Most pistols are designed to be carried +1. Glock's are designed to carry +1 and even the their manual says the same thing. It's all about the legal issues.

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