Presenting concealed carry to the Church leadership, seeking permission to cc inside
This is a discussion on Presenting concealed carry to the Church leadership, seeking permission to cc inside within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The church I attend has no stance on concealed permit holders bringing their firearms inside, and Ohio law dictates that places of worship are off ...
July 7th, 2011 05:36 PM
Presenting concealed carry to the Church leadership, seeking permission to cc inside
The church I attend has no stance on concealed permit holders bringing their firearms inside, and Ohio law dictates that places of worship are off limits unless they give permission. I called up one of our pastors a couple months ago and asked that he look into things. He talked about it a bit, and has informed me that there will be an elder's meeting eventually and the subject will be placed on the agenda, and he'd like me to come present the subject to them.
I really didn't expect them to ask me to do this, but I intend to write up a nice presentation of reasons for cc, as well as presenting copies of the relevant laws. I may ask an attorney friend come along for the ride, to assist with questions they might have about liability and whatnot. At least one of the elder board is an attorney as well, and we have at least one active LEO, a few military guys, and all around reasonable bunch. I know they aren't anti 2a in general, as many of them have shot skeet with me at our retreats, but that doesn't mean they are pro cc.
I'm unsure exactly where to start with the presentation, but I'll be putting together my thoughts over the next few weeks here (I do have some time to prepare, fortunately). Have any of you had to present to a a board of trustees, elders etc? I'm curious if you have some source materials or short books/literature I could purchase ahead of time to hand out as follow-up reading for the group.
July 7th, 2011 05:36 PM
July 7th, 2011 05:39 PM
Google Jeanne Assam, that in a nutshell should help make a case for it.
July 7th, 2011 06:02 PM
I can't help with your presentation, but as for me I carry and don't feel the need to tell anyone. Whether your church agrees to let you carry or not, soon everyone will know that you carry. Word spreads! How will you feel about that? Will some of those in your church look at you differently? But at any rate you will have a clear conscience and that is probably at the root of your concern. I'd guess that there are some of those mentioned in your post that are carrying. Just a guess. For every decision there are consequences - good / bad. Unfortunately you won't know which until the decision is made. Hindsight is 20/2O. Good luck to you and I hope things work out favorably.
July 7th, 2011 06:05 PM
If you do a search here on DC for church shootings you may come across a post that I remember oh so well. It was a list of churches all across America that had instances of violence from armed intruders and the like. If I remember correctly it must have been 20 - 30 news report links where churches have been robbed, people killed in the pews, etc. I believe if you could show the elders or church leadership that list they would gladly welcome CPHs in the church pews.
July 7th, 2011 06:08 PM
A couple resources that might help:
Security at Church - A Church Security Blog (run by a friend of mine)
Carl Chinn (a catalog of incidents involving churches)
Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.
July 7th, 2011 06:11 PM
Whatever you do, try to avoid being branded "paranoid". Remind them that crazies are opportunistic and prey( no pun intended) in places where armed resistance is not the norm. Push the point that CC individuals are "trained" and licensed and not police "wannabees" or mall ninjas.
July 7th, 2011 06:14 PM
You might mention the incident that happened right here in my home town of Ft.Worth a few years back. Don't remember which church it was, but some crazy man walked into a church while they were performing a play and started randomly shooting people. I don't remember how many were killed, but it was quite a few. He picked a church because he knew it was a gun-free-zone. I believe this helped change Texas law on the issue of churches, so now any CHL can enter a church armed unless the church posts a 30.06 sign.
July 7th, 2011 06:29 PM
Dr. Charles A. Stewart has some sermons on self defense located here.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?currPage=1&keyword=Dr.^Charles^A.^Stewa rt&SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&Aud ioOnly=false&SortBy=added
they are full of info that may help.
also if you do a site search on self defense here.
SermonAudio.com you may come up with more.
here I did it for you.
self defense Sermons - SermonAudio.com
hope it helps.
July 7th, 2011 07:19 PM
I pointed out to our pastor, that 'more' men who met their wives in church, are convicted of domestic violence than those that did not.... a local statistic. So, you think you have a lot of angels sitting in the pews ??
He bugs me about attending, and I told him I will... the day they take the signs down from the doors. You must post it here, or it's legal. They posted the church.
Besides that, I don't like this pastor much anyway, he has a very self-righteous and pious attitude that rubs me wrong. I walked into the lobby area with a 'hat' on to pick up my granddaughter, and he was telling me how God may strike me dead with lightening for doing that. He wasn't joking. My response was, I think if he wanted to do that he would have already done it and there wouldn't be much you or I would have to say about it.
My point : good thing that they are trying to be fair , and listening to both sides of the argument.... there is hope.
One point I would make is, safety.... guns don't go off by themselves. Second, that some nut job in the congregation decides to off members of the church, or his Ex-gf while she's at church with someone else, or nut job in general.... there will be some level of protection if members are armed. Besides, it's not only "inside" the church, but while you are going to and going home from.... do they want everyone 'disarming' out in the parking lot ?
Last edited by Eagleks; July 7th, 2011 at 09:25 PM.
I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."
July 7th, 2011 07:22 PM
This should not become a "debate" over gun rights.
A church is meaningless without the support and respect of your fellow worshipers.
I would bring one or two members along who also believe in Self Defense.
Getting CCW to be "normal" will eventually require the consent of everyone in the church.
-SIG , it's What's for Dinner-
know your rights!
"If I walk in the woods, I feel much more comfortable carrying a gun. What if you meet a bear in the woods that's going to attack you? You shoot it."
July 7th, 2011 09:39 PM
You do make a very good point, and I do run the risk of being branded a gun nut. I'm already known as "the guy who brought shotguns to the retreat" - as I loaned them out for half our church to get some skeet shooting in a few years back. That degree of fun doesn't fade quickly in memory, it seems. I don't want to be known as the guy who carries a gun, by any means, and I am risking blowing that wide open. I took my cc class with another member of our church, and I am going to ask him to join us.
Originally Posted by Inspector71
Regarding my conscience, that has no bearing on this subject at all. I take it by your post that you suspect others in my church are carrying (and doing so illegally), which I highly doubt, at least among our elders. Perhaps others in the congregation are, I wouldn't know there. I have no desire to wind up spending time in jail because I got made while cc'ing at church without permission, or worse, had to use it to defend myself and was convicted of that technicality.
I hear that - exactly my sentiments as well!
Originally Posted by GunGeezer
Many thanks to the rest of the replies that have provided resources and links, I'll be digging through them reading up!
July 7th, 2011 11:47 PM
I recieved permission via email from our executive pastor.... I worship every week with my cc in tow
(He is an avid gun enthusiast)
I guess I wake up every day and know that with each day, our society and our country is eroded a bit.
Anything can happen these days...... as the stress for living grows and expectations for better things are
evaporating... As our dollar continues to drop in value, as our food prices continue to grow, as our houses are
worht less and less, I believe that there will be more deranged and more desparate people out there.
thats on the street, and thats any crowd........ even a church.
I trust my God, and believes that he loves me, even though I'm not worth it......but he also gives us a brain
to reason things and to act and to protect whats important.
An imperfect servant of my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ
Buying American made, keeping Americans working
....Whenever I still can
What non-shooter are YOU planning on taking to the range?
July 8th, 2011 12:09 AM
You've been directed to some great resources here in the previous posts. I believe it is important to express your motives, intentions, and reasons in a respectful and articulate manner. It would also help to include your education and training with regards to not only firearms but safety and the laws in your state regarding carrying and use of lethal force. They need to understand that you hope and pray you never ever are in a situation in which you have to utilize a firearm. It is reserved for only the most dire situation in which there is no other choice or die. I believe siting some examples (perhaps some statistics on the number of church related violence incidents over a certain period of time) would help.
I have a lot of experience giving presentations to Boards of Directors and Community Groups, Town Councils, etc. I'll be glad to assist you in any way. Feel free to PM me and I'll give you my e-mail address. I tend to start with an outline and a logical flow that builds up to the conclusion. Just let me know and I'll be glad to help in any way.
Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.
Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.
July 8th, 2011 02:21 AM
Just call me a pessimist...
What strikes me is the "elder's meeting EVENTUALLY". I wonder if the extended timeframe is to give the elders time to "pre-discuss" the topic before their actual meeting? Sort of like a local city council which has developed the reputation of not discussing/debating issues during the regular meetings (all the discussion/debate takes place before the meeting and behind closed doors). During their regular meeting, they hear public testimony, make comments and then vote.
Originally Posted by Snider
BTW, what county is your church in?
July 8th, 2011 04:58 AM
I think the Church in Fort Worth was Wedgewood Baptist and it was 7 teenagers. I was just listening to John Weaver's audio. So far, pretty fascinating, definitely worth a listen.
Originally Posted by adric22
My other Kahr is a Kimber.
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