What Can We Learn From This ABC Study On Concealed Carry?
This is a discussion on What Can We Learn From This ABC Study On Concealed Carry? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Tzadik
One point they did make that is true is to train for real life situtation.
Range shooting alone may not hack ...
July 22nd, 2011 10:38 AM
The last video posted in this topic area was some boob "training" like that, and putting a couple big holes in his leg. Carrying a gun NEVER makes you invulnerable. That's the only lesson here. I personally do not spend much time training for a gunfight. I spend most of my training efforts evaluating ways to never be in a pistol fight in the first place.
Originally Posted by Tzadik
Although I do not have definitive statistics, I've heard of more people getting shot, killed, and injured "training" and playing around with their weapons, than people getting gunned down because they aren't quick enough on the draw. More positive stories seem to involve people who luckily have a firearm within arm's reach when trouble comes calling. The Texas politician whose grandson dragged out the family shottie to run off a home invader, and the old lady who shoots a rapist (who is surprised by the fact she has a gun) are examples.
I think the best training available is something I have never seen offered: sensible risk avoidance. I spend far more time working on ways to keep me and my family safe than I do training to win a pistol encounter.
Here are some risk avoidance strategies that actually require a lot more effort than simply attending a pistol-fighting class:
Do whatever it takes to get the education you need to have solid, well-paying career. Your wife and kids will live in better neighborhoods away from druggies, bangers, and crazies. Although bad things can happen anywhere (and do), they happen with far less frequency in "nicer" areas.
Get a good "day job". Jobs that keep you out late at night or in rundown areas open you up to far more risk than someone working a 9 - 5 gig in an office.
Avoid criminal activities. Eschewing illegal drugs, embezzlement, robbery, and theft keeps you away from others who may assault you for whatever reason.
Avoid crowds and areas where trouble starts. Don't stay out late at night. If you can't afford to socialize at "nice" establishments, stay in and type crap on the intertubez while enjoying your drinks. If you ever experience any type of commotion, anywhere, it's time for you and yours to leave quickly.
I think one's "training" is better spent in these areas. Just my two cents, and worth everything you paid for it.
Last edited by MadMac; July 22nd, 2011 at 11:42 AM.
July 22nd, 2011 10:38 AM
July 22nd, 2011 10:50 AM
I took an "Advanced" CCW class a few months ago and it opened my eyes to this very issue. This class involved situation-based training instead of 99% classroom, like most CCW classes. Even with the training, many students did not perform well and I would not care to be standing next to them when the balloon goes up. As much as we all want to say it's the other guy, I was faced with my own shortcomings too (although I did better than most). What I took seriously going in took on an entirely new depth upon leaving.
Here in FL, the requirement is that CCW applicants "Demonstrate Proficiency" with a firearm. This "Proficiency" is at the sole discretion of the instructor. Most classes actually require that you shoot only 1 round at a paper target. I've heard stories of instructors who will come to your house with a 'clearing-box' and have you fire 1 shot from a .22 into it, hand you a certificate and send you on your merry way...armed.
It's a very hard call to make on my part. On one hand, I FIRMLY believe in "shall not be infringed". On the other, idiots with guns scare me. The only thing I can think of is to require a higher level of training, but then we get into the slippery slope of government and the instant potential of abuse. I could easily see a higher standard as a way to limit rights and line pockets (a la "Voting tests" in the south).
I guess all I can do is train my hardest and hope everyone else does too. I know that most of us on the forum do take this endeavor seriously, but what are yall's thoughts?
July 22nd, 2011 11:18 AM
I agree that you can make the outcome of these things anything you want, but their hypothesis is pretty much the same as every force on force training I've done with relative novices.
A few things that I have learned is that in the gun world, people always over inflate and over state their skills. A CCW class is pretty much worthless as "training" and there is always somebody more prepared that you are at any given time.
Last edited by SIXTO; July 22nd, 2011 at 12:20 PM.
"Just blame Sixto"
July 22nd, 2011 11:36 AM
I'd be interested on what you specifically mean by "train my hardest". Are you going to attend one of those Thunder Ranch sessions where you travel across country, stay in a hotel, and pay for the classes? Would you tell your wife and kids they can't go to DisneyWorld this year because dad needs the vacation money to "train his hardest" for a potential pistol fight?
Originally Posted by chefjon
Are you willing to dedicate several hours per week practicing martial arts, and force-on-force training?
I read a lot of this stuff here, and it appears to me that many folks think that whatever they are doing for training is the correct amount, and anything less should disqualify others from carrying. What I see for "training" (like that video of Quick Draw McGraw shooting himself in the leg) looks like lots of "quick draw" practice out in the back forty.
I'd like to see those proposing all this training actually lay out the training program they think is necessary, not just suggest a Mas Ayoob class. What should initial training consist of? What are the requirements for advanced training? What should someone do weekly? Monthly? Annually? Should there be training beyond pistol fighting? Martial arts? Aerobic and anaerobic workouts so you can be in tip-top shape?
Let's actually list the requirements instead of saying nebulous, unspecific platitudes like "train my hardest". I'm truly curious.
July 22nd, 2011 11:40 AM
Typical of CBS. I am a CCW permit holder. Let's set this experiment done in my favor. I know the BG is coming in, and I know when he is coming in. I know which door he is coming in.
I wonder what the outcome will be this time... Whatever it is, lets turn it into a statistic and broadcast it nationally!
July 22nd, 2011 11:50 AM
Well, the video makes some good points. In fact, I've come away learning something from it. Most people don't think to take cover.
One of the things I do no matter where I go is I look at all of the entrances and exits. I look at all of the people around me and profile them for possible danger. If I have a choice of places to sit, I try to find some place with a brick wall behind my back, so any surprises will be within my field of vision. But in all of this, i've never put much consideration into where I could take cover. And I've also never really practiced much drawing my gun while crouched over or while sitting down. So I can see I need to add these to my practice routine and spend more time when examining my surroundings as to where I could take cover if something bad happened.
Now, after saying all of that. I do believe that this situation was staged as a worst case scenario and the odds were definitely against the CCW here. And while it is certainly true the CCW was of little use in this experiment, there are thousands of other situations where the CCW would have the upper hand.
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato
July 22nd, 2011 11:55 AM
The supposed CHL holder is always placed in the same seat in the classroom. Why?
The most experienced shooter is the bad guy. Why?
The supposed CHL holder is wearing some really weired clothing which makes drawing the gun problematic. Why?
Do the videos point out some potential problem, certainly. But, does the real world evidence line up with what they are trying to prove in this segment. I don't think so.
Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
Texas CHL Instructor
Texas Hunter Education Instructor
July 22nd, 2011 02:53 PM
ME ME ME let me try..... but with my equipment not their crappy stuff and lets loose the gloves and that awkward shirt.....
so anyone else done any force on force training....
"The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
July 22nd, 2011 02:53 PM
If it wasn't for the title I would say its a video that shows the need for constant training. You can't just take one class like those kids did and expect to remain proficient. Its a constant process
"The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."
July 22nd, 2011 03:56 PM
This pretty much sums it up. I remember when this was aired about a year ago being so mad. Everything is done to set up the "subject" to fail.
Originally Posted by farronwolf
July 22nd, 2011 04:04 PM
Any body else notice the holster seemed to be a thumb break type (not the best for CC) and I don't typically wear a shirt that has elastic at the bottom which could hinder draw. They showed the kid how to shoot, but not the proper draw stroke. And what does this mean? Just because I might get shot in a fight (probably would have whether I am armed or not) doesn't mean I should not be able to shoot back.
Ever notice we always talk about one stop shots being "mythical", well it works both ways. What I mean is that if a perp shoots me, I may not go down right away either and I am going to defend my loves ones and myself with my last breath. If I have no gun, all I can do is lay there and die.
July 22nd, 2011 04:21 PM
CBS, NBC, ABC..... None of these news organisations are worth a block of salt. They all skew the news they report on in way or the other to increase their ratings; and it usually comes at someones, or some organizations expense. It's a sign of the times, but the media is one of the most, if not the most powerful platforms out there to mislead or outright hoodwink the masses. Just look at what's going on in London as we sit and post and read this forum right now....
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke 22:36
"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." – Thomas Jefferson
July 22nd, 2011 04:36 PM
Propaganda virtually always shows its position to be the best/only viable position.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
July 22nd, 2011 04:50 PM
What can we learn? The some media outfits will try anything sensationalistic, especially that which is likely to enflame segments of the viewing public, to get ratings & advertisers.
I wonder if the "professionals" they hired to help conduct this "study" saw or endorsed the final product?
"Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)
July 22nd, 2011 05:13 PM
1) The title of the video is the sole responsibility of the person who posted it on YouTube, though the news agency probably wouldn't argue with the title.
2) There is always a "no-win" scenario. I know a flight instructor at FedEx who checks out pilots on the simulator. If he gets a cocky pilot (is there any other kind?) he gives them the "no-win" scenario where they have to land in heavy crosswinds, sleet, and low light. Unless you're Captain Kirk and secretly reprogrammed the simulator, you will fail and die. In the case of the video, the BG comes in shooting the teacher, then immediately turns to the gun holder and shoots. Unless you knew he was coming, you'd probably be dead too. Does this mean CCW holders live in a fantasy world? Of course not. There are numerous situations where you wouldn't have to fast draw against a bad guy, but your CCW would still save others' lives as well as your own.
3) I almost missed it, but did you catch the following from the video (paraphrased)? "And we all know how often innocent bystanders are hit by stray police bullets." Yeah, we all know how often that happens. Gee, you think this comment was biased? Are innocent citizens getting shot up everyday by random police bullets, and I have somehow missed all those stories and ensuing law suits?
4) What would happen if we gave the same group a slightly different scenario? Tell them ahead of time, "Now a BG is going to burst into the room right after you put on your helmet. He is going to shoot the teacher, then he's going to try to shoot you. Here's your gun." (Begin sarcasm) Then we could use the results to say that everyone should carry a gun without training! I mean, just look at this study we did! Every single person in the study, from no weapons training to 100s of hours at the range, was able to dispatch the bad guy! Guns are simple and effective! Get yours today! No training needed! (End sarcasm)
5) I can't legally carry my gun on a college campus so this whole "study" is flawed and should be thrown out
Bersa Thunder Plus .380
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